Discussion:
I guess Boraman took my advice...
(too old to reply)
Lord Valve
2005-05-19 07:09:49 UTC
Permalink
...and got a job selling Earth Shoes. I bet he's having
a good time with all that extra money, now that he doesn't
have to rely on organ grinding to make a living.

Ten bucks says he still has the monkey. Ya never can tell...

Lord Valve
American
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-19 09:20:13 UTC
Permalink
Wassup with you ya fat old fascist? Not content with a few quiet days
on here - just have to come on and have a pop...Im guessing that being
an ignorant old right wing wanker gets a bit boring sometimes - and so
starting a new flame war is the one of few pleasures you have left in
the diminishing few days in life..

A desperately sad pathetic old has been....go and play with your little
fake plastic 'organ'.....just..fade way.....

Or seeing as even this whacko fundamentalist Christian Republican
administratiopn wont carry out your favourite plan to 'nuke mecca' why
dont you get your fat burger laden arse down to Guantanamo Bay - you
could have some REAL fun kicking the shit out of Muslims - and shouting
"Where is your God now?" and generally contributing to the ongoing
scenes of torture. Torture? Who called it that? Must be some crazy,
extreme commie pinko nigga luvin organisation.....

well - it was the Red Cross..that hot bed of commies and poofsand
Muslim extemists???!!

Q: Where is YOUR god now Willie?

A: Nowhere - it never existed - and never will..no matter how much you
drop down to those ravaged old knees and pray with your fat little eyes
squeezed shut...your praying to thin air - always was...always will
be...sad old man.

BH#2
Tony
2005-05-19 12:21:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
dont you get your fat burger laden arse down to Guantanamo Bay - you
could have some REAL fun kicking the shit out of Muslims -
Hey, you reminded me of something. Did you know the BBC is using Gitmo
ex-prisoner sources for news reporters?
Now that Newsweek has KILLED indirectly about 15 to 20 people on a false
anti-Bush story, the 'news'
source is saying that it is not true EXCEPT the BBC who says: "well it
doesn't matter that it is not true the 2 British prisoners (actually Arab
extremists with British citizenship) said that they do that with the Koran
all the time!!!" I saw this report and the BBC discards the retraction of
Newsweek, and says, "does not matter they do it anyway." (paraphrased)
No one has said to the BBC that it is impossible to flush a Koran down a
toilet. (yet)

The BBC is the only one doing that. Hicks, (who works for BBC) do you know
why? (discarding the retraction and carrying out the charges) Maybe enough
people have not been killed yet on the false story?

I think it is also interesting the new definition of "torture". Use to be
pain, injury, fingernails removed, parts of body cut off, starved to death,
slowly murdered - the new 'BBC' definition is: 'Lyndy England pointing at
your penis or a mask over your head". Yeah, 'torture'. It reminds me of the
word 'holocaust' being overused. This country had a "holocaust" that
country, the Indians, this race, that race - waters down what happened in
the real holocaust - as the 60th year is noted after the end.

As George Orwelle said and predicted - "newspeak" - political correctness,
words have no meaning. Give me back Truman (a Demi by the way).

T-Man
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-19 13:32:03 UTC
Permalink
Tony

Read this - and Get Lost!

Newsweek audience "small-minded, ignorant and wants to stay that way"

Now read the rest:

Cowardice in Journalism Award for Newsweek
Goebbels Award for Condi
Wednesday, May 18, 2005


by Greg Palast

"It's appalling that this story got out there," Secretary of State
Condoleezza Rice said on her way back from Iraq.

What's not appalling to Condi is that the US is holding prisoners at
Guantanamo under conditions termed "torture" by the Red Cross. What's
not appalling to Condi is that prisoners of the Afghan war are held in
violation of international law after that conflict has supposedly
ended. What is not appalling to Condi is that prisoner witnesses have
reported several instances of the Koran's desecration.

What is appalling to her is that these things were reported. So to
Condi goes to the Joseph Goebbels Ministry of Propaganda Iron Cross.

But I don't want to leave out our President. His aides report that
George Bush is "angry" about the report -- not the desecration of the
Koran, but the reporting of it.

And so long as George is angry and Condi appalled, Newsweek knows what
to do: swiftly grab its corporate ankles and ask the White House for
mercy.

But there was no mercy. Donald Rumsfeld pointed the finger at Newsweek
and said, "People lost their lives. People are dead." Maybe Rumsfeld
was upset that Newsweek was taking away his job. After all, it's hard
to beat Rummy when it comes to making people dead.

And just for the record: Newsweek, unlike Rumsfeld, did not kill anyone
-- nor did its report cause killings. Afghans protested when they heard
the Koran desecration story (as Christians have protested crucifix
desecrations). The Muslim demonstrators were gunned down by the Afghan
military police -- who operate under Rumsfeld's command.

Our Secretary of Defense, in his darkest Big Brother voice, added a
warning for journalists and citizens alike, "People need to be very
careful about what they say."

And Newsweek has now promised to be very, very good, and very, very
careful not to offend Rumsfeld, appall Condi or anger George.

For their good behavior, I'm giving Newsweek and its owner, the
Washington Post, this week's Yellow Streak Award for Craven Cowardice
in Journalism.

As always, the competition is fierce, but Newsweek takes the honors by
backing down on Mike Isikoff's exposé of cruelity, racism and just
plain bone-headed incompetence by the US military at the Guantanamo
prison camp.

Isikoff cited a reliable source that among the neat little
"interrogation" techniques used to break down Muslim prisoners was
putting a copy of the Koran into a toilet.

In the old days, Isikoff's discovery would have led to Congressional
investigations of the perpetrators of such official offence. The
Koran-flushers would have been flushed from the military, panels would
have been impaneled and Isikoff would have collected his Pulitzer.

No more. Instead of nailing the wrong-doers, the Bush Administration
went after the guy who reported the crime, Isikoff.

Was there a problem with the story? Certainly. If you want to split
hairs, the inside-government source of the Koran desecration story now
says he can't confirm which military report it appeared in. But he saw
it in one report and a witness has confirmed that the Koran was
defiled.

Of course, there's an easy way to get at the truth. RELEASE THE REPORTS
NOW. Hand them over, Mr. Rumsfeld, and let's see for ourselves what's
in them.

But Newsweek and the Post are too polite to ask Rumsfeld to make the
investigative reports public. Rather, the corporate babysitter for
Newsweek, editor Mark Whitaker, said, "Top administration officials
have promised to continue looking into the charges and so will we." In
other words, we'll take the Bush Administration's word that there is no
evidence of Koran-dunking in the draft reports on Guantanamo.

It used to be that the Washington Post permitted journalism in its
newsrooms. No more. But, frankly, that's an old story.

Every time I say investigative reporting is dead or barely breathing in
the USA, some little smartass will challenge me, "What about Watergate?
Huh?" Hey, buddy, the Watergate investigation was 32 years ago -- that
means it's been nearly a third of a century since the Washington Post
has printed a big investigative scoop.

The Post today would never run the Watergate story: a hidden source
versus official denial. Let's face it, Bob Woodward, now managing
editor at the Post, has gone from "All the President's Men" to becoming
the President's Man -- "Bush at War." Ugh!

And now the Post company is considering further restrictions on the use
of confidential sources -- no more "Deep Throats."

Despite its supposed new concern for hidden sources, let's note that
Newsweek and the Post have no trouble providing, even in the midst of
this story, cover for secret Administration sources that are FAVORABLE
to Bush. Editor Whitaker's retraction relies on "Administration
officials" whose names he kindly withholds.

In other words, unnamed sources are OK if they defend Bush,
unacceptable if they expose the Administration's mendacity or evil.

A lot of my readers don't like the Koran-story reporter Mike Isikoff
because of his goofy fixation with Monica Lewinsky and Mr. Clinton's
cigar. Have some sympathy for Isikoff: Mike's one darn good reporter,
but as an inmate at the Post/Newsweek facilities, his ability to send
out serious communications to the rest of the world are limited.

A few years ago, while I was tracking the influence of the power
industry on Washington, Isikoff gave me some hard, hot stuff on Bill
Clinton -- not the cheap intern-under-the-desk gossip -- but an FBI
report for me to publish in The Guardian in England.

I asked Isikoff why he didn't put it in Newsweek or in the Post.

He said, when it comes to issues of substance, "No one gives a sh--" --
not the readers, and especially not the editors who assume that their
US target audience is small-minded, ignorant and wants to stay that
way.

That doesn't leave a lot of time, money or courage for real reporting.
And woe to those who practice real journalism. As with CBS's retraction
of Dan Rather's report on Bush's draft-dodging, Newsweek's diving to
the mat on Guantanamo acts as a warning to all journalists who step out
of line.

Newsweek has now publicly committed to having its reports vetted by
Rumsfeld's Defense Department before publication. Why not just print
Rumsfeld's press releases and eliminate the middleman, the reporter?

However, not all of us poor scribblers will adhere to this New News
Order. In the meantime, however, for my future security and comfort,
I'm having myself measured for a custom-made orange suit.

Greg Palast was awarded the 2005 George Orwell Prize for Courage in
Journalism at the Sundance Film Festival for his investigative reports
produced by the British Broadcasting Corporation. See those reports for
BBC, Harper's, The Nation and others at www.GregPalast.com"

You are going to have to to try MUCH harder than that Bush Boy.

Bill Hicks The Second

A Real Bill Hicks qoute (The Bush he mentions is Snr..cos Bills been
dead 10 years now)

That's another good thing about Bush being gone, man, cos for the last
12 years with Reagan and Bush, we have had fundamentalist Christians in
the White House. Fundamentalist Christians who believe the Bible is the
exact word of God, including that wacky fire and brimstone Revelations
ending, have had their finger on the fucking button for 12 years.
[Eyes roll back in head] "Tell me when Lord, tell me when. Let me be
your servant Lord." Fundamentalist Christianity - fascinating. These
people actually believe that the bi.., er, the world is 12 thousand
years old. Swear to God. What the..? Based on what?
I asked them. "Well we looked at all the people in the Bible and we
added 'em up all the way back to Adam and Eve, their ages - 12 thousand
years."
Well how fucking scientific, okay. I didn't know that you'd gone to so
much trouble. That's good. You believe the world's 12 thousand years
old?
"That's right."
Okay I got one word to ask you, a one word question, ready?
"uh huh."

Dinosaurs.

You know the world's 12 thousand years old and dinosaurs existed, they
existed in that time, you'd think it would have been mentioned in the
fucking Bible at some point.
"And lo Jesus and the disciples walked to Nazareth. But the trail was
blocked by a giant brontosaurus... with a splinter in his paw. And O
the disciples did run a shriekin': 'What a big fucking lizard, Lord!'
But Jesus was unafraid and he took the splinter from the brontosaurus's
paw and the big lizard became his friend. And Jesus sent him to
Scotland where he lived in a loch for O so many years inviting
thousands of American tourists to bring their fat fucking families and
their fat dollar bills. And oh Scotland did praise the Lord. Thank you
Lord, thank you Lord. Thank you.... Lord."
Tony
2005-05-19 14:18:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
Read this - and Get Lost!
<big snip Newspeak>

You never answered the question. Do you reject the BBC using Islamic
fundamentalist, ex-prisoners at Gitmo for 'news sources' with obvious axes
to grind? Should the BBC truthfully report that a false *news* story has
caused many deaths AND it is not true (story) - instead of "we have British
prisoners from Gitmo who refute the retraction? Is the BBC broadcasting in
the torn areas to ignore the retraction for further deaths and violence? I
think yes. Those that want to continue the violence need only to say,
"listen to the BBC they have ex-prisoners in the UK (British naturalized
Islamic extremists) that say it DID happen - so ignore the retraction."

Oh well . .I guess *fundamentalism* is OK with you if the word
'Islamic' is in front of it. Christian fundamentalists= "evil" in your book
(not citing myself as one, just writing Hick's obvious values) Islamic
fundamentalists= "OK".<---

One of the last times they (BBC) were using 'Baghdad Bob' in 2003 as a
'source'. That was incorrect also.

T-Man
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-19 14:53:19 UTC
Permalink
Tony

read it again.

BH#2

PS - I dislike all fundamentalists - dont try and nail me with that
kind of slack arsed tactic - you really aint trying hard enuff big
fella. Nearly as funny as you tried to confirm your sneaking suspicion
that becuase I said i couldnt support any mainstream poltical party you
asked me if perhaps I supported the Communist Party.

Come on Tman - this is kids stuff from the 1950's McCarthy era

I see our Scottish political renegade George Galloway MP (Respect
Party)- turned the table on the iraq oil inquisition - oops I mean The
Senate Committee - even raving right wingers here in the UK gave him 5
stars for firing some really uncomfortable questions back at this
kangeroo court.

They tried to nail him saying:(paraphrased)

"Mr Galloway - you actually made the effort to meet Saddam Hussien
twice when he was in power didnt you?

George said "I have met Saddam Hussein exactly the same number of times
as Donald Rumsfeld met him. The difference is that Donald Rumsfeld met
him to sell him guns and to give him maps the better to target those
guns. I met him to try and bring about an end to sanctions, suffering
and war, and on the second of the two occasions, I met him to try and
persuade him to let Dr Hans Blix and the United Nations weapons
inspectors back into the country - a rather better use of two meetings
with Saddam Hussein than your own Secretary of State for Defense made
of his"

Other statements of significance that Galloway made to the Senate
Committee:

"Have a look at the real Oil-for-Food scandal. Have a look at the 14
months you were in charge of Baghdad, the first 14 months when $8.8
billion of Iraq's wealth went missing on your watch. Have a look at
Haliburton and other American corporations that stole not only Iraq's
money, but the money of the American taxpayer. Have a look at the oil
that you didn't even meter, that you were shipping out of the country
and selling, the proceeds of which went who knows where? Have a look at
the $800 million you gave to American military commanders to hand out
around the country without even counting it or weighing it. Have a look
at the real scandal breaking in the newspapers today, revealed in the
earlier testimony in this committee. That the biggest sanctions busters
were not me or Russian politicians or French politicians. The real
sanctions busters were your own companies with the connivance of your
own Government.

One of the most serious of the mistakes you have made in this set of
documents is, to be frank, such a schoolboy howler as to make a fool of
the efforts that you have made. You assert on page 19, not once but
twice, that the documents that you are referring to cover a different
period in time from the documents covered by The Daily Telegraph which
were a subject of a libel action won by me in the High Court in England
late last year. The existence of forged documents implicating me in
commercial activities with the Iraqi regime is a proven fact. It's a
proven fact that these forged documents existed and were being
circulated amongst right-wing newspapers in Baghdad and around the
world in the immediate aftermath of the fall of the Iraqi regime.

You have nothing on me, Senator, except my name on lists of names from
Iraq, many of which have been drawn up after the installation of your
puppet government in Baghdad. There were 270 names on that list
originally. That's somehow been filleted down to the names you chose to
deal with in this committee. Some of the names on that committee
included the former secretary to his Holiness Pope John Paul II, the
former head of the African National Congress Presidential office and
many others who had one defining characteristic in common: they all
stood against the policy of sanctions and war which you vociferously
prosecuted and which has led us to this disaster"

- I dont trust George Galloway - after all he is a policitian - but
that was pure genius - Good for Him!

Has this made the news in the US....Has it? Do you know what Im talking
about?

BH#2
Tony
2005-05-19 18:35:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
Tony
read it again.
BH#2
PS - I dislike all fundamentalists - dont try and nail me with that
kind of slack arsed tactic -
No, not true. You can say that but the evidence of your writing reveals that
you write repeated negatively
about Christians and Christion fundamentalism and not Islamic
fundamentalism, other than a passing remark. You write little or nothing to
criticise Islamic extremists and don't even condemn Zarcowie in a previous
off-topic thread. That was right around after he beheaded-alive a British
woman, yet you wrote nothing.You wrote nothing just some more rant about
"Republicans" and "Bush" or something. It seems *you* have the problem with
hatred.

Perhaps you have little condemnation of Osama Bin Laen also - which is why I
asked you if you were familiar with Professor Ward Churchill writings as you
right similiar. He blamed the WTC event on "little Eichmans" of evil, world
conspirators of money that worked at the WTC. Most victims were secretaries
and workers. Or Jeremy Glick, a disgraceful person,
who father was lost there who blamed Bush/Clinton not Bin Laden. You have
nailed yourself with prejudice. You write like them.

T-Man
Lord Valve
2005-05-19 15:49:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
No one has said to the BBC that it is impossible to flush a Koran down a
toilet. (yet)
They're probably going by Brit shitter specs.

Brits are so full of shit, their crappers have foot-wide pipes
to let it all go down to the sewer. In fact, some of them have
trouble telling what's Brit from what's Shit, and don't know when
to flush. Or when to stop shitting, come to think of it. A Koran
will easily fit down the throat of a Brit crapper; of course, it's
kind of wasteful to flush the entire thing at once instead of using
it correctly, one sheet at a time.

Damn, I gotta take a dump - where's my Koran?

Lord Valve
Organist
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-19 16:06:29 UTC
Permalink
The Qu'ran is next to The Holy Bible - in the 'No Longer Relevent'
section of your local library.

Islam...Christianity...Hinduism...Judaism ....what-ever...it's all
bullshit.

BH#2

PS - Willie - you dont have to TELL us you need a dump fella! We
unfortunatly get to see the contents of your lower colon each & every
time you post on here.
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-19 16:17:19 UTC
Permalink
Oh yeah..lets take it from the very beggining

Why do you hate the English?

BH#2
IHM
2005-05-19 21:41:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
dont you get your fat burger laden arse down to Guantanamo Bay - you
could have some REAL fun kicking the shit out of Muslims -
Hey, you reminded me of something. Did you know the BBC is using Gitmo
ex-prisoner sources for news reporters?
Now that Newsweek has KILLED indirectly about 15 to 20 people on a false
anti-Bush story, the 'news'
source is saying that it is not true EXCEPT the BBC who says: "well it
doesn't matter that it is not true the 2 British prisoners (actually Arab
extremists with British citizenship) said that they do that with the Koran
all the time!!!" I saw this report and the BBC discards the retraction of
Newsweek, and says, "does not matter they do it anyway." (paraphrased)
No one has said to the BBC that it is impossible to flush a Koran down a
toilet. (yet)
The BBC is the only one doing that. Hicks, (who works for BBC) do you know
why? (discarding the retraction and carrying out the charges) Maybe enough
people have not been killed yet on the false story?
As George Orwelle said and predicted - "newspeak" - political correctness,
words have no meaning. Give me back Truman (a Demi by the way).
You should read the Orwell book again. I think you missed the point about
the Government controlling information, speech and thought.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. "People need to be very careful about
what they say, just as they need to be very careful about what they do."

It's not just the BBC questioning the "retraction", but much of the world
media. Including the below report from ABC Australia. Newsweek has KILLED
indirectly? That's like saying the LA Times caused riots by reporting the
Rodney King story. The fact your government is suggesting such an
ridiculous thing should raise many alarms for American people who believe in
free speech.

Consider the weak denial from the US DoD.
"We don't believe they are true"
"He added that it was "likely" the former inmates were lying."

Consider that there have been numerous complaints about psychological abuse
and torture coming from Guantanamo (In fact a number of international
organizations question the US authority to even hold these people) many
involving symbols of the Islamic faith.

Also, the Newsweek source was not a detainee, but a senior US official.
"The pressure was on Newsweek to retract its report. The magazine checked
with its source - a senior US official - who confirmed that he had come
across references to the mistreatment of the Koran in the results of an US
investigation into the mistreatment of prisoners at Guantanamo.
But he was no longer certain that they had come from the specific report he
had originally named. "

IHM

________________________________________________________________________
Guantanamo prisoner tells of Koran abuse, US apology

An Afghan who spent three years at the Guantanamo Bay detention centre a
said that interrogators frequently desecrated the Koran, which prompted a
hunger strike and a US apology.
Abdul Rahim, 40, said during an interview on AVT Khyber television, a
Pashtu-language private channel, that abuse of the Muslim holy book was
routine.
"Abuse of the Koran was done routinely particularly in the early days of
detention," Mr Rahim said.
His claims could not be independently verified.
"They would throw the holy book on the ground, trample upon it and tell the
prisoner under interrogation no one could stop them from doing that.
"The news of sacrilege sent shockwaves among the prisoners and all of us
went on a hunger strike.
"We declined to participate in the interrogation and also did not eat
anything for many, many days," he said.
Mr Rahim, according to the interviewer, said that the hunger strike ended
only after top American officials apologised for the desecration.
"All of us ended the hunger strike except for a Palestinian. It was due to
our efforts and sacrifices that we restored the honour of the Koran," he
said.
The interview came after the American magazine Newsweek on Monday retracted
an article which said interrogators had thrown a Koran into a toilet to
rattle Muslim prisoners at the detention facility in Cuba.
The report sparked protests throughout the Muslim world. In Afghanistan 14
people were killed.
Mr Rahim said he was captured in Peshawar by Pakistani intelligence in 2001,
handed over to US custody and held at Guantanamo before his release and
return to Pakistan, via the Afghan capital Kabul, in mid-April.
The US Defence Department has denied accusations by former Guantanamo
inmates that Koran holy books had been desecrated.
"In the allegations of released detainees, we have found nothing to
substantiate these types of investigations," Pentagon chief spokesman Larry
DiRita said.
"They were not specific and remarkably contrary to the way we try to manage
these issues. We don't believe they are true," he said.
He added that it was "likely" the former inmates were lying. "Detainees who
are released make all manner of statements."
Mr DiRita said the accusations have not been the investigated because of the
lack of credibility but that a wide-ranging review of interrogations at the
detention camp in Cuba was under way.
"There might be instances where the Koran may have fallen to the floor while
searching a cell, offending a detainee," Mr DiRita said.
-AFP

----------------------------------------

A story that wasn't true actually tells a true story
BY TOM PLATE

THE embarrassing Newsweek climb-down on the Quran story is surely one for
the annals of journalistic screw-ups. Sure, maybe the magazine's editor
probably should resign as a gesture of respect for the Muslim world, not to
mention for whatever is left of honour in the US journalism profession. And
for a respectful period, the magazine in general should hang its head in
shame. But something serious is being lost in the crusade to quarantine
Newsweek.
It's that the story (which may still prove to have taken place) was in fact
all-too believable in Newsweek's offices and around the world - precisely
because of the oft-crude manner in which the administration in Washington
has been waging its "war against terror."
This war has been at times conducted as if Muslims and Arabs weren't people,
as if when they are imprisoned they definitely aren't "real people," and as
if 9/11 - admittedly a terrible tragedy - has been the only serious tragedy
the world has experienced these last several years.
The Newsweek story said that Muslim prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, had
been humiliated by having to watch as a copy of the Quran flushed down a
toilet. It turns out that Newsweek relied on but one source, and when that
source a Pentagon official changed his story (because he had been lying?
Been misinformed? Been pressured by higher-ups in the Pentagon to repudiate
his story?), the Newsweek exclusive collapsed like a house of cards in a
desert sandstorm.
Sure, it was a serious error to go public with a story like this on the
basis of a sole source. Newsweek, after all, isn't some bumptious,
fly-by-night blog; it's one of the best magazines around, with a famously
superb fact-checking staff which ordinarily can distinguish the fly from the
ointment with the best of them.
But the print story surfaced in this magazine against the backdrop of those
awful pictures of Arab and Muslim prisoners being humiliated, violated and
de-humanised by their American captors at Abu Gharib in Iraq. Without those
pictures - and other tales of abuse - the Quran story would never have been
published without far more extensive fact-checking, and surely not on the
basis of a single source.
This is not to exculpate Newsweek, to be sure. It is to suggest that the
administration, which is now calling on Newsweek to apologise to everyone
and their mothers, must be viewed as something like an un-indicted
co-conspirator.
For had this war, notably in the US treatment and interrogation of war
criminals or enemy combatants (whatever we call them, they are still
people), been waged by the US on a higher humanitarian level, Newsweek would
have had a different kind of story. It would have had a stunning
world-exclusive mega-scoop.
As it was, the weekly magazine turned the story into a very short piece in
its Periscope section. In other words, the item was deemed as simply another
example of bad things happening to "them" (Arabs, Muslims) at the hands of
"us." Had the Quran story been the first of its kind, the magazine would
have given it much more space, perhaps even elevating it to a cover story.
The fact is that much of the Muslim and Arabic world has already been
traumatised by the American intervention in Afghanistan and Iraq, been
repulsed and angered by pictures of prisoner abuse, and had its suspicions
of American cultural disrespect confirmed by the likes of General William
Boykin.
General Boykin, a top Pentagon official and a key figure in the US war on
terror, in public speeches has unfavourably compared Islam to
Christianity--- and he still has his job. That certainly says something to
many in the Muslim world.
Newsweek's little sin is thus nothing compared to this administration's much
greater sins. By launching a war against terror in a way that is probably
working to infuriate a good part of the Muslim world, the administration has
pretty much succeeded in spreading anti-Americanism even without Osama bin
Laden's help. "Osama must be smiling victoriously in his cave," commented a
Pakistani newspaper. Maybe, but the administration's foreign policy in the
Muslim world is certainly no laughing matter.
Tony
2005-05-19 23:31:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by IHM
That's like saying the LA Times caused riots by reporting the
Rodney King story.
Completely different. One is a true story caught on film the other (Koran
flushing) retracted and completely false. If you want to point to a US story
that had some truth to it (inapropriate treatment not torture) you could
point to the Abu Ghra prison story that ran day after day after day after
day after day after day. No one knows how many solders were killed by the
aid and comfort to the enemy, of that story as it inflamed the Jihad.. The
civilian beheadings just got a cursory mention compared to Lydy England
pointing to a penis..This is the problem of undeclated war or 'police
actions' - in real declared war the 'aid and comforters' are simply hung.
Tokyo Rose was actually not hung - as GIs actually considered the broadcast
entertainment. Lord 'Ha Ha' the British national with Nazi connections in
WWII WAS hung who broadcasted for the Nazis. Of course, I am not comparing
these cases to general 'aid and comfort' cases of the press but shows where
it can go.

T-Man
IHM
2005-05-19 23:48:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by IHM
That's like saying the LA Times caused riots by reporting the
Rodney King story.
Completely different. One is a true story caught on film the other (Koran
flushing) retracted and completely false.
Here we go again. There have been many reports of this type over the past
few years and complaints from trusted observers. I expect it *is* true but
Newsweek gave in to political pressure.

IHM
(Here's a little something to back me up)

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=8549743

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The International Committee of the Red Cross told the
Pentagon as early as 2002 detainees at Guantanamo Bay prison had reported
U.S. personnel mishandled the Koran, Red Cross and U.S. officials said on
Thursday.

The International Committee of the Red Cross told the Pentagon "multiple"
times in 2002 and early 2003 prisoners at the base in Cuba alleged U.S.
officials showed "disrespect" for the Muslim holy book, said Simon Schorno,
an ICRC spokesman.

Former Guantanamo prisoners and lawyers for detainees have for months
accused U.S. personnel at Guantanamo of putting the Koran into toilets.
Pentagon officials said this week they did not consider such statements as
credible allegations meriting investigation.

Human Rights Watch said the dispute over Newsweek's report overshadowed the
fact that religious humiliation of detainees at Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere
has been widespread.
Tony
2005-05-20 01:12:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by IHM
(Here's a little something to back me up)
"Alleged" doesn't back you up. Trust me, if there were any evidence other
than prisonerss (same in England) Newsweek would not have made ****a VERY
VERY embarrassing retraction*****

Prisoners allege a lot of thing the cops do them after arrest, what prison
guards do, that they are all innocent etc - ***unreliable**** source. I
just hope an attorney represents the 15 or so so deaths in class action,
civilly, against Newsweek for their reckless reporting causing such death.
Had it been one of your relatives I am sure you would feel different.

I just hope they don't put the King James Bible in their toilets over there
or I am going to riot here in my town. <sarcasm>. Worst than Dr. Mengele.

T-Man
IHM
2005-05-20 02:53:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by IHM
(Here's a little something to back me up)
"Alleged" doesn't back you up. Trust me, if there were any evidence other
than prisonerss (same in England) Newsweek would not have made ****a VERY
VERY embarrassing retraction*****
If 10 people allege that you did something and only you claim it never
happened....who is more credible? Even if it's not true the shadow of
suspicion may be dark enough to draw conclusions.
Post by Tony
Prisoners allege a lot of thing the cops do them after arrest, what prison
guards do, that they are all innocent etc - ***unreliable**** source. I
just hope an attorney represents the 15 or so so deaths in class action,
civilly, against Newsweek for their reckless reporting causing such death.
Had it been one of your relatives I am sure you would feel different.
Assuming that some one is lying simply because they have been in jail is a
dangerous attitude. Many dictators have used this tatic to quell opposition
(like the movement in the US to prevent ex-cons from voting). It's
especially interesting considering that most of the inmates in Guantanamo
have never been formally charged with anything beyond being "enemy
combatants".
Post by Tony
I just hope they don't put the King James Bible in their toilets over there
or I am going to riot here in my town. <sarcasm>.
It's not a Christian sin to put a bible on the back of a toilet. It's
beyond imagination to do such a thing in the Islamic faith. In Muslim
countries one would be stoned, hung or worse for soiling the Koran publicly.

IHM
Tony
2005-05-20 03:25:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by IHM
If 10 people allege that you did something and only you claim it never
happened....who is more credible? Even if it's not true the shadow of
suspicion may be dark enough to draw conclusions.
Has to be one viable person or an unviable person with evidence, or a
'disinterested' person with no motivation.

Assuming that some one is lying simply because they have been in jail is a
Post by IHM
dangerous attitude. Many dictators have used this tatic to quell opposition
(like the movement in the US to prevent ex-cons from voting). It's
especially interesting considering that most of the inmates in Guantanamo
have never been formally charged with anything beyond being "enemy
combatants".
The *burden of proof* has to be on the unviable, motivated accuser. The
disinterested accuser especially with evidence holds the key. Why in Court a
judge will ask questions about prejudices before allowing on a jury.

You should concetrate your concerns on real torture, murder, rape and death
other than,
1. Lydy England pointing at a penis
2. The Koran *alleged* being flushed down the toilet

The world must be a very boring and uneventful place for people like you to
be so concerned as the above. I am just glad you didn't live around in the
days of the World Wars - as the above is laughable compared to real events
humanity has performed. These polictically correct arguments you say are
infinitesimally insignificant.

But you live int he world of socio-Liberal politicallly correctness - modern
Canada an abomination to it's founders who were strong Conservative people
and even the Conservative-to-the Crown American 'Tories' that moved up after
the US Revolution.

One example: I was listening to a non-political late night talk radio show.
Someone called in from Canada saying how aweful the political correctness
and the strong socio-Liberal 'group think' of the Country. I could write a
lot what this person said, but one highlight was that *it is politically
incorrect in Canada(" to discuss illegal aliens even though they are swarmed
by illegal Chinese immigrants. Do I believe this? I don't know, just saying
what one moderate Canadian said.
Post by IHM
It's not a Christian sin to put a bible on the back of a toilet. It's
beyond imagination to do such a thing in the Islamic faith. In Muslim
countries one would be stoned, hung or worse for soiling the Koran publicly.
You don't know that. There are dozens of Christian sects with different
values. Are you a studied lauriate of the Christian and Muslim faith? I
think not. Some African tribes will stone their female child without female
circumcision. That is religion too, so the US has to respect that? . .no
. .asylum has been given to these female children on some occasions .
the US cannot help 'eccentric insanity of faith' people from killing on
*false reports*, physically impossible to do also.

T-Man
IHM
2005-05-20 06:26:43 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Tony
The world must be a very boring and uneventful place for people like you to
be so concerned as the above. I am just glad you didn't live around in the
days of the World Wars - as the above is laughable compared to real events
humanity has performed. These polictically correct arguments you say are
infinitesimally insignificant.
Agree'd. I'm more concerned about the motivation of the acused and what
country allegedly commited these acts of "cultural torture". Great power
must be held to a higher standard.
Post by Tony
But you live int he world of socio-Liberal politicallly correctness - modern
Canada an abomination to it's founders who were strong Conservative people
and even the Conservative-to-the Crown American 'Tories' that moved up after
the US Revolution.
Didn't the newly created US force United Empire Loyalists to leave? I think
we are still considered quite conservative compared other countries. We
certainly consider ourselve "stogey and polite" in comparison to our
American Cousins and we are still ruled by the Queen of England (and the
bitch does it with an iron fist;). Your declaration is "Life, Liberty, and
the Pursuit of Happiness," and ours is "Peace, Order, and Good Government."
That doesn't sound liberal to me.

In fact, the well respected site http://www.politicalcompass.org/ just put
up an analysis of current Canuck political climate. Both of our major
parties are quite moderate conservative, one more right than the other. I'd
encourage you to take the test before you look. Tell us your score!
Post by Tony
Post by IHM
It's not a Christian sin to put a bible on the back of a toilet. It's
beyond imagination to do such a thing in the Islamic faith. In Muslim
countries one would be stoned, hung or worse for soiling the Koran
publicly.
You don't know that. There are dozens of Christian sects with different
values. Are you a studied lauriate of the Christian and Muslim faith? I
think not. Some African tribes will stone their female child without female
circumcision. That is religion too, so the US has to respect that? .
.no
. .asylum has been given to these female children on some occasions .
There's a difference between holding an object sacred and mutilating
children.
Post by Tony
the US cannot help 'eccentric insanity of faith' people from killing on
*false reports*, physically impossible to do also.
So how can Newsweek be held responsible?

IHM

BTW The only problem I'm aware of with illeagal Chinese immigrants are those
poor souls who end up in dead in Vancouver Harbour after being in a ship
container for a month, or the ones who end up as prostitutes for asian
gangs. Some places are swarming with *legitimate* asian immigrants. Maybe
someone heard wrong.
Tony
2005-05-20 19:49:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by IHM
Didn't the newly created US force United Empire Loyalists to leave? I think
No. Too many. Because 33 per cent of the population during the Revolution
were Loyalists. 33 percent were rallied for the Revolution, 33 percent did
not care either way, and one part pre-mentioned (33 percent) were
'Tories.' The ones forced to leave were individuals who collaborated, I
believe their property was seized under War Power acts. Out of the rest of
the 33 per cent there was a percentage (because overwhelmingly were English
colonists) that rejected Independance, were called said, 'Tories' (a term
used then and today to describe Conservatives as they want to 'conserve' the
Crown) A large percentage of these left the new US and moved into Canada.
Many thousands.

You have to remember the early Ben Frnaklin himself was a Loyalist contrary
to what many think and one of the highest respected American founding
fathers who insisted that things could be patched up. Also a musician among
many skills and inventions and invented, perhaps one may argue the first
'wheel' organ that was glass 'wheels' Sometimes called the 'water organ'.

He argued in earliar times relentlessly against any Revolution. He was
listened to, not deported. As an ambassitor he got on a ship to London to
patch things up and hoped to bring back a persuasive argument to his friends
who were the most influential in the country including future Presidents.
. .instead he was immediately arrested as a traitor in London and put
on trial for his life . .writings about this indicate one famous
prosecutor of the day shouting in his face for hours as Franklin sat in
court . . . he was acquitted (because at the time had a history of
being a Loyalist) but came back from London a changed man. Being one of the
highest respected people in the colonies when he changed - it sealed it. .

. one has to remember that at this time the success of the
Revolution was largly successful because of one person . .George
Washington . . . .a remarkable man . .rejected being 'King' .
though chivalrous himself . . . (just about singlehandedly invented the US)
. who was also a high level British General during the French and Indian
War . . also almost singlehandedly drove the French with
Native American allies out of the colonies. (why no dual language here like
Canada) He was able to create and organize the rag-tag Continental Army
that was allied as a tri-partied with the militia (guerillas) and the,
ironically, French blockade - who really didn't care but wanted to be
'spoilers' for the British that they were at war with and loved the thought
of *them* also being removed Washington capitalized on this sentiment
politically who after Independance rejected the French as an ally with
Proclamation of Neutrality and had their ambassedor for war support arrested
and jailed.. (Citzen Genet)

T-Man
Lord Valve
2005-05-19 15:42:58 UTC
Permalink
Damn, he's easy. ;-)

LV
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
Wassup with you ya fat old fascist? Not content with a few quiet days
on here - just have to come on and have a pop...Im guessing that being
an ignorant old right wing wanker gets a bit boring sometimes - and so
starting a new flame war is the one of few pleasures you have left in
the diminishing few days in life..
A desperately sad pathetic old has been....go and play with your little
fake plastic 'organ'.....just..fade way.....
Or seeing as even this whacko fundamentalist Christian Republican
administratiopn wont carry out your favourite plan to 'nuke mecca' why
dont you get your fat burger laden arse down to Guantanamo Bay - you
could have some REAL fun kicking the shit out of Muslims - and shouting
"Where is your God now?" and generally contributing to the ongoing
scenes of torture. Torture? Who called it that? Must be some crazy,
extreme commie pinko nigga luvin organisation.....
well - it was the Red Cross..that hot bed of commies and poofsand
Muslim extemists???!!
Q: Where is YOUR god now Willie?
A: Nowhere - it never existed - and never will..no matter how much you
drop down to those ravaged old knees and pray with your fat little eyes
squeezed shut...your praying to thin air - always was...always will
be...sad old man.
BH#2
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-20 17:10:22 UTC
Permalink
Hey Willie!!

here is that smoking gun again..read it and then have an anal prolapse
when you realise that you were screwed right up the backside - ya silly
ignorant redneck...

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/11/britain.war.memo/

You still think that Bush was on the moral highground - the fucker is a
CRIMINAL!!

"The visit took place while the Bush administration was still declaring
to the American public that no decision had been made to go to war.

"There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now
seen as inevitable," the MI-6 chief said at the meeting, according to
the memo. "Bush wanted to remove Saddam through military action,
justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD," or weapons of mass
destruction.

The memo said, "the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the
policy."

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-uswmd074251820may09,0,7225183.story?coll=ny-uspolitics-headlines

and you boy..youre just dumb to have fallen for it!

BH#2
Tony
2005-05-21 00:53:06 UTC
Permalink
"Bill Hicks the 2nd" <***@hotmail.com> wrote

<big snip of nonsense>

The word "fixed" is a characteriztion by Conyors (not CNN in the article) an
opposition party leader and one of the most flaming anti-Bush Liberal
Congressmen in the House. Nothing in the article represented anything
"fixed". Even the moderate Democrats are embarrassed by Conyets, et al.

As the Blair spokesman said about your memo link, "nothing new." And nothing
new from Hicks who has yet to link anything sensible or objective though an
emotional, juvenile charm in political zealousness.


T-Man
IHM
2005-05-21 01:29:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
<big snip of nonsense>
The word "fixed" is a characteriztion by Conyors (not CNN in the article)
No, the *memo* stated intelligence was being "fixed" around the policy. In
other words, we're making it up to support our plan.

From the actual memo

C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible
shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush
wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the
conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were
being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN
route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime's
record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after
military action.

IHM
Tony
2005-05-21 02:21:21 UTC
Permalink
How did I know 'IHM' was going to answer this?

"C" is an unamed British official. The press gets all kind of wild and crazy
claims from *unnamed* officicials.
Who is "C"?

I hate to tell you there is not one thing cited as being "fixed". What?
Phooney British Intelligence reports? Did they say that. no? Was Russian
intelligence also fixed? Did they say that? No.This in Conyers shanagigans.
Read it again. Nothing I read was fixed, just to me shows normal prudent
discussion on how politically an action is perceived.

So what evilly was fixed? What event? . .

Now if it said hypothetically. "Blair adhered to the President's covert
request and secretly ordered false reports from British Intelligence about
Husseins WDM to create a perception of threat." **Which it did NOT say.***
THAT is what "fixed" is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, year "everything is fixed, Bush is evil, has all kind of
secrt plans, attacked for oil, bla bla bla bla " . . you people are off
your rocker. It will take, I guess, only a Nuke to go off somewhere in some
city before you 'Neville Chamberlains' will ever get it and frankly your
igonoring of the facts is scary and I am DAMN GLAD you people are not in
power.

The American public answered who they believed in the last election. Good
enough for me and polls show that Americans have felt safer. Who do you wish
was running foreign policy? - Jimmy Carter? who could not even organize a
rescure attempt in Iran. Made a foreign policy mockery in the Iran Crisis
and brought Reagon to power. Yeap - your guys' man - Jimmy Carter
the foreign policy 'guru' LMAO!!!

One more 9/11 and you Libs may just as well go into a corner and talk to
yourself about flowers and birds because what may come afterward will pale
in past premptive action.

T-Man
Organfreak
2005-05-21 02:38:17 UTC
Permalink
On or aboutFri, 20 May 2005 22:21:21 -0400, someone purporting to be
Post by Tony
How did I know 'IHM' was going to answer this?
"C" is an unamed British official. The press gets all kind of wild and crazy
claims from *unnamed* officicials.
Who is "C"?
It was widely reported that 'C' is the head of MI6.
Tony
2005-05-21 04:17:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Organfreak
It was widely reported that 'C' is the head of MI6.
Whether he/she whoever was or not . . what is the specific charge of what
was fixed? The only charge I can think of would be a covert operation by
Blair to falsefy Intelligence reports. (would have to do it with Russian
Intellagence also).

Blair retorts through a spokesman. "nothing knew" . . obviously if
anything was serious here Blair would have had to step down not say "nothing
knew". Blair would also probably face a jail term if he did this . so a
"nothing knew" answer means he does not even take it serious, or the
opposition *interpretation* serious. What I read it looks simply like
political discussion how action would be perceived.

No crime - no charge. Let alone the fact that he would have had to step-down
with interference with British Intelligence.

T-Man
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-23 10:39:12 UTC
Permalink
Its no good IHM - Tony would rather pull his intestines out through his
nostrils than admit that The Mighty Bush is in fact a front for corrupt
big business - and that he and millions of others got suckered into
supporting an international crime....

Tony could even catch Bush red handed pocketing Iraqi oil money for
himself and the other Neo Con pressure groups..he would just shut his
eyes to it rather than admit he was wrong - its never gonna happen!

Tony - should perhaps join the Flat Earth Society:

http://www.flat-earth.org/

In Tonys head - Hiroshima was justified - Oswald shot JFK - Bush is a
legitimate honest politician..and all Europeans are
commies/faggots/terrorist supporters....and Dr Lonnie Smith is a crap
jazz Hammond player..

If it wasnt so sad - it would be funny

BH#2
Tony
2005-05-23 13:06:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
In Tonys head - Hiroshima was justified - Oswald shot JFK - Bush is a
legitimate honest politician..and all Europeans are
commies/faggots/terrorist supporters....and Dr Lonnie Smith is a crap
jazz Hammond player..
And according to Hicks there is a conspiracy in every event that happens in
the world. The man is paranoid - EVERYBODY is conspiring and sneakily
dishonest - maybe because he is?

Excuse me! Excuse me! I never said one comment about Lonnie Smith not that I
disagree or agree with any said here. My commets were about jazz vs
jazz-funk. You are lying again.

Hiroshima also saved millions of Japanese lives as the recent declassified
document shows that all the WWII stockpile of 1000s of tons of nerve,
mustard and other poison gas were to be disposed on Japan before a Japanese
invasion (this was at a time the Hicks has no clue being an ignoramous
about history about when the public sentiment was that the Japanese were
sub-human). And by the way . . . . tell that to some of the
G-Generation survivors (if you can find one still alive) of Japanese POW
camps in Britain. I SAY you don't have the balls.

The use of gas on Japan according to a declassifed document would have been
about 4 or 5 millions civilian causualties.
Hisroshim SAVED lives and certainly millions of servicemen lives. This is
way above Hicks' head but Okinawa showed the fanatic cost of fighting near
the Japanese homeland - the allies were not going to pay it. Hicks would
probably have been the first to shoot himself in the foot or something to
avoid invading Japan if HE had to do it.

You know what I say Hicks, IF they invaded Japan perhaps YOU should have
been on that boat heading for shore taking machine gun fire.

Read the Posner book on the Kennedy assassination.

T-Man
Lord Valve
2005-05-23 16:12:55 UTC
Permalink
...Hiroshima was justified - Oswald shot JFK - Bush is a
legitimate honest politician..and all Europeans are
commies/faggots/terrorist supporters....and Dr Lonnie Smith is a crap
jazz Hammond player...
There's hope for him.

LV
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-23 08:09:49 UTC
Permalink
"emotional, juvenile charm in political zealousness."

Thst is an accusation coming from the man who suggested 'death by pigs'
for terrorists.....and his main ally on this NG - Lord valve suggested
"nuking Mecca"

brilliant

keep it coming T man & Willie!

Tony - have you ever noticed that in your debates you are perfectly
willing to consider any possible option - no matter mow much it
stretches the imagination - rather than simply just even consider
that......drum roll.............Bush is a liar - Blair is a two faced
shit - all governments are liars US/British etc intelligence services
were persuaded to spin the truth about WMD and Saddam and even
Afghanistan to a certain extent ..you will scrabble around - clutching
at all kinds of unlikley straws - but wont consider that the
Republicans are....eveil f*ckers who will screw YOU over if it suits
them

You are a born conformist - as well as a jazz snob.

BH#2
Tony
2005-05-23 08:44:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
Thst is an accusation coming from the man who suggested 'death by pigs'
for terrorists.....
How could ANYONE think of something SO MEAN to such NICE people? I am
mystified. Another, 'pro-terrorist or sympathic-terrorist' post by Hicks.

How about an apology for your incorrect information on your BBC radio show
about McDuff. Don't blame you for trying to change the subject. You are
wrong *on topic* and *off topic*.<-------- must be embarrassing.

What do you suggest, fish and chips with faggets and peas for terrorists? I
hear in the UK there may be a law making it a crime to speak for terrorist
leaders or publicly celebrate terrorist events. Kind of like the laws in
Germany that are anti-Nazi. Hicks, just giving you a heads up. Don't get
your self arrented now.

For Zarcowie who beheaded alive many innocent civilians and Bin Laden who
killed thousands. Yeah. Sure. Tie them down Cherokee Indian style first with
4 pegs - one per limb in the sty, maybe paste them with molasses and honey -
there are many Americans who would raise the gate, trust me, including many
from the families of the murdered. Lethal injection is too good.
Hicks, when are you going to write something bad about the terrorists? Eh?
(probably has a Zarcowie poster in his bedroom)

Writing from the still-with-capital-punishment USA,
T-Man
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-23 09:20:44 UTC
Permalink
Tman - Go to bed you child! Its past your bedtime.

Its not about being mean - its about you suggesting totally stupid
things! Death by pigs???? - you cretin!!

Apology for incorrect info?? You are a sad old anally retentive old
fool...WHETHER the anecdote is true or false appears to be up for
debate..I know Ive read/heard in the past that Smith gave lessons to
McDuff AND McGriff - but what are you asking me to do - produce
documents and present this to the Senate Committee on Hammond Organ
Folklore - we are talking about a 10 minute FUN feature on radio - not
dossiers about WMD... YOU WANKER!! HA HA - YOU MAKE ME LAUGH ON A DAILY
BASIS! Bless you Tony...

So your proud of the US death penalty are you? Think it works do you??

Typical for a badly informed right-wing ignorant pleb - youre going
against the facts- and logic.

Fact one - The US has the death penalty - BUT the highest murder rate
(per capita) in the West - what does that show? That the Death Penalty
DOES NOT WORK as a deterent... If it did - the US would have one of the
lowest murder rates....

Fact Two - many murderers when caught of facing inprisonment commit
suicide - why? From Hitler in his bunker to the Colombine shootings
this is often the case - cos they would rather die than face
prosecution/humiliation and a lifetime behind bars.

Conclusion - YOU want to give the murdering bastards the soft option!!

You must then be some soft bellied Liberal - want to give murderers the
easy option - you big commie!

As for the rest of your 'toys out of the pram' rant:
"I hear in the UK there may be a law making it a crime to speak for
terrorist leaders or publicly celebrate terrorist events"

read the news (if you can find any in the US) more carefully - thats
all there is to say

Listen you silly fucker - I dont (often) directly berate terrorists on
this news group (but I have done - go archiving - its there) because as
far as I am aware there are not many or any Hammond organ playing
Jihadists who post on here ..THERE ARE two of the most bullshit fed,
ignorant, retarded, right wing McCarthy era throwbacks who post on here
every day - that would be you and Willie....youre just fucking ignorant
- he's bordering criminally insane....or pretends to be...'nuke
mecca'..it would be funny if it wasnt so sad/mad/bad and dangerous

Thats why I come on here and blow your feeble arguments
out-of-the-water on such a regular basis - and just like your 'death
penalty' argument above - its so easy - its easier than taking candy
from a baby - because well - youve been spoonfed bullshit- but are too
stupid to realise it..

Pitiful

BH#2

PS - poster of Zarcowie? Surpisingly not - Ive got a framed painting of
Charlie Mingus...and some Blue Note Record sleeves done as framed
pictures...

ONCE again - you display the mental agility of a Bush - so in your head
I MUST support Jihadists because I am anti Bush? Is that as flexible as
your mind is?? - there are only TWO positions that can possibly be
adopted regarding the unwinable/fake war on terror..

Willie is just as stupid - thinks Im anti American...which is just
about the dumbest conlusion anyone could come to..

And that is why debating with you is like going back to kindergarden -
whilst enlightened thought deals withg the real issues - you cant get
passed the unreal headlines in the mainstream UN press (Its an orange
alert today - no ...wait - its a green alert....might be yellow with
blue spots tomorrow)

Go read - get real - get up to date - then we will talk ..until then
its like debating with Jed Clampett.

BH#2
Tony
2005-05-23 12:48:52 UTC
Permalink
You sound a bit upset - that's right, you have made a complete fool of
yourself . . .by stating Jimmy Smith taught McDuff and then blamed
the radio producer, this does not even include the long-term making a fool
of yourself on off-topic.

Means you can't cut the gig. You can't even cut the 'posting gig'. .
. . .The producer expects professionallity. (ha ha ha! .
.whew. .oh man!) YOU are supposed to come on the set and HAVE material
prepared if you are asked to fill in. That is called a *professional*
(lmao!) . . I suppose if you were a sports commentator and
told to fill in a bit of time *you would probably give some incorrect sports
stats* and then blame the producer.

Speaking about sports, I was happy to see Americans buying up the English
soccer teams as the news reflected this week. *Celebrate diversity* in
soccer ownership.I say to Jolly Old England.
Thats why I come on here and blow <snip>
The only thing you blow is hot air. You don't know *on topic* or *off
topic*.. The REALLY funny part is *you think you know.* You have this "third
eye", right? . . . Charlie Manson thought the same thing . .
. . everyone was crazy he knew the answers. (3rd eye)
ONCE again - you display the mental agility of a Bush - so in your head
Thank you!!! It is not off I am compared to the President of the United
States!
And that is why debating with you is like going back to kindergarden -
Thank you! As kindergarten teacher I would consider it a proud profession!

Also your discussion of *nukes* is not so far impossible as one may think,
unfortunately, in my opinion. A nuke goes off in the US snook in by a
terrorist, I say with all confidence ANYTHING could happen in retaliation,
. . . ANYTHING . . AND definitely be WWIII in full force - pray,
. . . .that is right you have no God except your own twisted
bio-alpha-numerical thoughts, it never happens - that is why the low-force
security attempts by the US should be supported and not criticised. A nuke
going off in the US *may* bring a US First Strike on suspected countries as
the public will demand mass retaliation, with a 'wipe the plate clean'
attitude unfortunately. North Korea will probably be gone. Then Libs like
you are going to be sorry they did not support the low-force,
democratization solutions. Do I believe an Internet bozo like Hicks who
screws up his own radio spot because he chokes when called upon to fill
on-air time and just about can't say ONE THING accurately off topic, or
Henry Kissinger who said, "the American people are living in the most
dangerous times in *centuries*."

"duhhhhhhh I am cool I can play a few organ chords on a Hammond I believe
Hicks!!! . . and I don't have to go to college 'cause I am getting a gig
at a bar AND free drinks an pot" well thankfully most people are smarter
than *some* of the knuckleheads maybe a couple that post here.

T-Man
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-23 13:33:06 UTC
Permalink
Tony - Is that your best shot?? Is that it???? Really?

Ive blown the gig? Ive made a fool of myself? Not in the slightest.
Hahahahahahah nice try Hitler - but you are way wide of the mark..
again

The stories about about Smith teaching McDuff & McGriff are well
established wheetehr its factually correct or not - I merely mentioned
the story as part of the general chit chat.....

I cant see this resulting in some kind of enquiry ("He deliberatley
misled the listeners!!")- so this childish "nah nah you made a mistake"
stuff is quite wrong for a man of your age...grow up - I guess your
bitterness stems from the fact that....your a recovering addict with no
impact on the world of Hammonds..and probably a little jelous of my
radio & TV influence in the Hammond organ world

Aaaaah........ TOUGH!

And you LIKE being compared to a dishonest, draft dodging, mono
sylabic,Christian fundamentalist fuck wit? Good - the cap fits - you
wear it well....youre a really thick ingoramus...if thats what you WANT
to be known as...so be it.

Now lets just have a look at what youve just posted on here:

"AND definitely be WWIII in full force "

You cretin - if an un-named/ill defined/shady terrorist group does
strike at the US - exactly who and what are you going to wage World War
Three on??? There wont be any armies - there wont be any obvious HQ to
attack....there wont be missile silos to target...what and who are you
going to be bombing?


So - if a small band of terrorists DID manage to set off another strike
in a US city - you would think it JUSTIFIED to kill the innocent people
of some other country?? So if Al Qauida bombs the US - its the correct
thing to do in bombing North Korea???

International terorists are not bound by national boundaries - so what
would happen is that The US would strike back at a group of people who
had nothing to do with the original attack? Oh yeah - the US has
already done it - ..."9/11 - lets invade Iraq!!" 9/11 had nothing to do
with Saddam..Bush has even since admited it...I guess you werent
listening....again.

Tony - think about what you are saying - you seem incapable of working
your way through the propaganda, and bullshit spewed out by the hawks
in The Project For The New American Century.....

Go here now - go join these Neo Fascist Christian idiots...should be
right up your alley..

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

"The Project for the New American Century is a non-profit educational
organization dedicated to a few fundamental propositions: that American
leadership is good both for America and for the world"

What is good for America is rarely good for the rest of the
world....well at least as far as these Neo Fascists are concerned:

A rigged election (2000)
The unwinnable war on drugs
The fake war on terrorism
The Kyoto Treaty...or lack of it
Willie Whittaker - the 'Nuke Mecca' candidate
T-Man - the "nuke anybody" candidate

So much to be proud of.....Not looking to good so far is it????!!!!!

BH#2

PS - "the American people are living in the most dangerous times in
*centuries*."

Well - if thats true you are only just entering a situation that has
been the reality for the rest of the wolrd for decades - a bad
situation - with much of the situation being due to the US's
Imperialist, isolationist, rascist foreign policy - religous bigoty and
thinking (or lack of it)

PPS - I hope you enjoy my two ''Hammond Time's'' on the radio next week
hope you enjoy my bands next two releases "Salt Popcorn" and "The Soul
Habit EP"

remind me again about your contributions to the Hammond
scene............oops...there are none.

Youre not relevent.
Tony
2005-05-23 14:14:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
Tony - Is that your best shot?? Is that it???? Really?
Not a shot I am speaking truthfully and trying to help you.
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
The stories about about Smith teaching McDuff & McGriff are well
established wheetehr its factually correct or not - I merely mentioned
the story as part of the general chit chat.....
One minute you say it is not true and blame the producer now it is true
again?
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
I guess your
bitterness stems from the fact that....your a recovering addict
YOU publicly wrote that you use illegal drugs and said you smoked illegal
drugs with 'name' players. I have not smoked a joint for 20 years and no no
no . . sorry . .you are trying to lie again . . . never
addicted and never used narcotics, but embarrassed I recreationally used
soft drugs as a very young person - should have had more sense - BUT YOU
don't have that sense NOW!<-----
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
with no
impact on the world of Hammonds..
That is right actually right now. I am playing just about all piano. I am
actually delighted with it. My Hammond material is impeccible if I say so
myself, though.

.> and probably a little jelous of my
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
radio & TV influence in the Hammond organ world
. . and HOW would I like to have your success so I can buy my very old
motorscooter also.
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
Aaaaah........ TOUGH!
I think it is more "tough" you have to ride around on a motorscooter. I own
3 very nice autos. 2 vintage. Many own more than I over here.
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
And you LIKE being compared to a dishonest, draft dodging, mono
sylabic,Christian fundamentalist fuck wit?
Oh my. The profanity.

I thought you were talking about Bill Clinton until you got to the Christian
part. If you mean Bush, I consider it an honor for someone to compare me to
Bush, yes. Bush is a great President and may have an awesome legacy.
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
Good - the cap fits - you
wear it well....youre a really thick ingoramus..
It is ignoramus and you are stealing my description of YOU. Think up your
own words.
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
So - if a small band of terrorists DID manage to set off another strike
in a US city - you would think it JUSTIFIED to kill the innocent people
of some other country??
War is hell. (and I said "nuke" in the US)

..."9/11 - lets invade Iraq!!" 9/11 had nothing to do
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
with Saddam..Bush has even since admited it...I guess you werent
listening....again.
War is hell.
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
remind me again about your contributions to the Hammond
scene............oops...there are none.
Oh, I guess I will need a tiny spot on the radio and then give INCORRECT
information to think I am doing something?
I got news for you, you think you are' doin' something' - LMAO!! - you are
doing shit AND you have no clue of what *I* do and I don't care what you
think.

T-Man
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-23 14:38:57 UTC
Permalink
Oh - so the US's response to a terrorist attack is a blind, knee jerk
reaction that has little to do with qactually fighting the actual
threat - just bomb someone - anyone - as long as it placates an enraged
electorate??

Fuck me...war IS hell - and with idiotic thinking like that anywhere
near the nuclear trigger - its no wonder that the rest of the world
shuddred when GW Bush 'won' the last election.

have you read back over what your saying?? "If we get the bombed the
rest of you are gonna pay - even if you had nothing to do with it"

"But thats ok - cos war is hell - it not our fault - we got bombed and
demand revenge - even at the expense of innocent lives..."

All this from the most 'developed' nation on earth???
Laughs MY ass off... the choice of 79 flavours of ice cream - but NO
public health system...but then again only a communist would want a
healthy happy people right!? Wrong.

PS - my influnce oh the Hammond scene actually extends to two radio
slots a week - a TV 70th anniversary tribute on national TV - gigs
every other weekend - and continuing to record that beast into the 21st
century..

Now tell me again what you do on the Hammond scene?

Drum roll - your contribution is.........Fuck all ...apart from bad
mouthing the actual tone wheel organs - and thinking that some half
assed plastic crap is as good as the real deal!!!

PS - answer my points/observations about the death penalty. ...strange
how you ignore these things when you dont have an answer...IN fact -
your thoughts on the death penalty fit well with your WWIII plans -
your planned actions have NOTHING to do with justice...just a "Someones
gotta pay" approach.

PS Boy - you are so stupid - it should be illegal to that stupid....its
no wonder people email me - and say stuff like - "Boy they are SO
stupid!"

PPs - Dont pity me on my 'old' scooter - its classed as a 'historic
vehicle' - and as such its exempt from UK road tax - and because it is
a well maintained classic bike - it increases in value each year
..(currently valued/insured for £4,500) so - I drive around as cool as
you like - getting 'hip' points from everyone I pass - and at the same
time its a financial investment that cant fail?? Silly Me!!

Its called having good taste and class - of which you would know
nothing.
Tony
2005-05-23 14:49:45 UTC
Permalink
"Bill Hicks the 2nd" <***@hotmail.com> screeched
<big snip>

Hicks, you know nothing. You lie. You misrepresent. AND Valve is correct you
ARE a CUNT.
You idea of playing a Hammond is getting high and masturbating you 'buzz'
audioly with a Hammond organ and hope something sounds good to listen to.
You can't read. You can't do cover. We call these guys in Philly "mummers".
I probably did more gigs at 13 that you have done in your life. You know
nothing technical. Even a clone is way technical and software is 'on the
moon'. You are self-deluded probably because youa are stoned all the time. I
would suggest like I tell otherr to go 3 months so you can come down to
reality Then if you finally come down to reality you can apologise.

T-Man
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-23 15:26:08 UTC
Permalink
Tman - Answer the questions!!

Tell me how the death penalty works....it fails to stop Colombine
shootings - fails to reduce the US' violent atmosphere - and completley
fails to bring down those super high US murder rates.. so....answer the
question.

"You can't read." If you mean music - correct - never stopped Lonnie
Smith!

"You can't do cover" - If you mean...well Im not sure what you mean -
do you actually know what you mean? It either very bad English - or
your failing on your 12 step recovery program - and are back on the
acid.

I know technical - well if by that you mean I leave fixing my tonewheel
to my engineer (ex chief Hammond Uk Engineer) then yeah - your are
correct...but then again I dont fix my scooter either...I still know
how to ride it.

How can you know how many gigs Ive done - or how many records Ive
issued?? You older than me - and so may have done more gigs than I in
totol - but your also an aging old tosser who will be dead before me -
and so even if you had done more gigs than me - I'll catch up (not that
I care - I am not in competition with you) So I ask you - what is your
point?

I pity you - your just a know nothing ranting old right wing fuckwit -
ignorant of facts - unable to look at anything from another point of
view - and suggesting that is any terrorist attack takes place on the
US mainland - that it will be a justifiable start to World War
Three...its terriffying to think that you are allowed to wander around
without a leash on.

Seems those crazy fundamentalist Christians (who believe in that whacky
'fire & brimstone Revalations end - of the - world nonsense" have got
to you...

Its just witchraft - and you put more faith in that than
'free-thinking'...but you would - you are intellectually retarded.

BH#2
Organfreak
2005-05-23 15:29:07 UTC
Permalink
On or about23 May 2005 08:26:08 -0700, someone purporting to be "Bill
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
Tman - Answer the questions!!
Tell me how the death penalty works....it fails to stop Colombine
shootings - fails to reduce the US' violent atmosphere - and completley
fails to bring down those super high US murder rates.. so....answer the
question.
"You can't read." If you mean music - correct - never stopped Lonnie
Smith!
"You can't do cover" - If you mean...well Im not sure what you mean -
do you actually know what you mean? It either very bad English - or
your failing on your 12 step recovery program - and are back on the
acid.
I know technical - well if by that you mean I leave fixing my tonewheel
to my engineer (ex chief Hammond Uk Engineer) then yeah - your are
correct...but then again I dont fix my scooter either...I still know
how to ride it.
How can you know how many gigs Ive done - or how many records Ive
issued?? You older than me - and so may have done more gigs than I in
totol - but your also an aging old tosser who will be dead before me -
and so even if you had done more gigs than me - I'll catch up (not that
I care - I am not in competition with you) So I ask you - what is your
point?
I pity you - your just a know nothing ranting old right wing fuckwit -
ignorant of facts - unable to look at anything from another point of
view - and suggesting that is any terrorist attack takes place on the
US mainland - that it will be a justifiable start to World War
Three...its terriffying to think that you are allowed to wander around
without a leash on.
Seems those crazy fundamentalist Christians (who believe in that whacky
'fire & brimstone Revalations end - of the - world nonsense" have got
to you...
Its just witchraft - and you put more faith in that than
'free-thinking'...but you would - you are intellectually retarded.
BH#2
Greg,
Why waste your breath on ppl who won't ever take a single point from
you? Why not enjoy conversing with like-minded people instead, like
me, for instance?

-OF
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-23 15:33:32 UTC
Permalink
Mr OF!

Ok then - here is the link to that archived Smith interview!! (Phew -
found it!)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/jazz/interviews.shtml

You will have to scroll down abit - there is a whole host of interviews
on here...some big names...US players - and some Brit Jazzers!

Enjoy!!

BH#2

PS - T Man - go f*ck yourself!
Organfreak
2005-05-23 15:36:59 UTC
Permalink
On or about23 May 2005 08:33:32 -0700, someone purporting to be "Bill
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
Mr OF!
Ok then - here is the link to that archived Smith interview!! (Phew -
found it!)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/jazz/interviews.shtml
You will have to scroll down abit - there is a whole host of interviews
on here...some big names...US players - and some Brit Jazzers!
Enjoy!!
Thanks! And I don't keer WHAT kinda organ you play! (I have both and
use them both.)
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
BH#2
PS - T Man - go f*ck yourself!
Organfreak
2005-05-23 15:49:28 UTC
Permalink
On or about23 May 2005 08:33:32 -0700, someone purporting to be "Bill
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
Mr OF!
Ok then - here is the link to that archived Smith interview!! (Phew -
found it!)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/jazz/interviews.shtml
I recorded it-- wonderful-- thanks again!

-OF
Lord Valve
2005-05-23 16:28:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
Brit Jazzers
Hey, Cunt - you misspelled "tossers."

LV
Lord Valve
2005-05-23 16:23:38 UTC
Permalink
Valve is correct you ARE a CUNT.
That's why I get the Big Money. ;-)

LV
h***@yahoo.com
2005-05-27 15:14:45 UTC
Permalink
Kettle...meet Pot.

And don't lie Tony...you've obviously never played a gig in your life,
and you don't live in philly.
Lord Valve
2005-05-27 15:27:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.com
Kettle...meet Pot.
And don't lie Tony...you've obviously never played a gig in your life,
and you don't live in philly.
Indeed, he *does* live in Philly.

Either that, or he's buying tubes for someone who does,
because that's where the ones he pays for go.

BTW, haven't seen you here before - that means you're either
a noob or a sock.

I don't suppose it matters which...

Lord Valve
American
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-27 15:31:03 UTC
Permalink
What does he buy tubes for?? A digital organ?

Hmm

BH#2
h***@yahoo.com
2005-05-27 15:49:14 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, I didn't know it was a PRIVATE CLUB. Do I have to ask some net
cops permission before I fucking post for the first time?

So shut the fuck up asshole. Go replace the Trucks kids amplifier with
a zoom processor and tell him how convenient it is and how it sounds
exactly the same.
Lord Valve
2005-05-27 16:12:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.com
Sorry, I didn't know it was a PRIVATE CLUB. Do I have to ask some net
cops permission before I fucking post for the first time?
So shut the fuck up asshole. Go replace the Trucks kids amplifier with
a zoom processor and tell him how convenient it is and how it sounds
exactly the same.
My goodness. So you're a sock, not a noob.

You obviously have some history with me. Well, no matter -
I'm sure I've been kicking your lame ass in the past, and
I'm sure I'll continue.

Every organ grinder needs a monkey. You'll have to buy
your own tin cup; I see you're already wearing the chain.

Lord Valve
Expert
Organfreak
2005-05-27 16:16:36 UTC
Permalink
On or aboutFri, 27 May 2005 16:12:40 GMT, someone purporting to be
Post by Lord Valve
Post by h***@yahoo.com
Sorry, I didn't know it was a PRIVATE CLUB. Do I have to ask some net
cops permission before I fucking post for the first time?
So shut the fuck up asshole. Go replace the Trucks kids amplifier with
a zoom processor and tell him how convenient it is and how it sounds
exactly the same.
My goodness. So you're a sock, not a noob.
Point: So is "Tony."

Your serve.
h***@yahoo.com
2005-05-27 16:18:24 UTC
Permalink
You do realize that many people may read these posts without
responding. You do know you're posting to the whole world? AND it's
all archived.

In other words, we don't have a history...you have a history and it
show's that you're an asshole. Maybe you should change your name to
"Lord Asshole"
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-27 16:35:43 UTC
Permalink
Hey fellas

Lord Valve used to state quite openly that "I'm not really an asshole -
but 'play' one on the internet'

I think he under-estimates his 'asshole' abilities..He isnt 'playing'
at being an asshole - he's a true professional ....

"Nuke Mecca" ...the stupid old fool ........

BH#2
h***@yahoo.com
2005-05-27 16:45:02 UTC
Permalink
Or he's crossed over and really is an asshole after playing one for so
long. I don't understand why the fool would "play" an asshole and try
to run a net biz. I guess he doesn't have much business sense either.
Tony
2005-05-27 16:56:50 UTC
Permalink
"Lord Valve" <***@ix.netcom.com> wrote > > And don't lie Tony...you've
obviously never played a gig in your life,
Post by Lord Valve
Post by h***@yahoo.com
and you don't live in philly.
Indeed, he *does* live in Philly.
Either that, or he's buying tubes for someone who does,
because that's where the ones he pays for go.
BTW, haven't seen you here before - that means you're either
a noob or a sock.
I don't suppose it matters which...
Lord Valve
American
16 on.cogeco<------.com (24.226.1.232) 82.5 ms (ttl=13!) !H

You can see hop 16 puts the poster back on cogeco.

The only poster in this group that posts from cogeco with an IP just about
exact is 'IHM' - again - this time on a different nym his 5th or 6th flame
nym. He is a friend of Organfreak's that is where he got that "no philly"
paranoid remark. Disappointment for Hicks - the same supporter. He is
Canadian and a flaming Liberal. (do any of these guys have any brains?)

T-Man
h***@yahoo.com
2005-05-27 17:02:26 UTC
Permalink
Theres only about 250,000 "flaming liberal canadians" that use Cogeco
as an ISP. Small world eh?
Tony
2005-05-27 17:34:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.com
Theres only about 250,000 "flaming liberal canadians" that use Cogeco
as an ISP. Small world eh?
Bullshit. Liar. I am sure all have the same IP, bozo. All I have to say to
you asshole.

Shame you don't have the *balls* to stay on at least one nym. You are a
snake-in-the-grass, like I told you before on a different nym, A coward. A
weasel. A Rat.

T-Man
IHM
2005-05-27 19:01:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by h***@yahoo.com
Theres only about 250,000 "flaming liberal canadians" that use Cogeco
as an ISP. Small world eh?
Bullshit. Liar. I am sure all have the same IP, bozo. All I have to say to
you asshole.
Shame you don't have the *balls* to stay on at least one nym. You are a
snake-in-the-grass, like I told you before on a different nym, A coward. A
weasel. A Rat.
T-Man
ROFL!! We all know how dangerous you are with a trace T-rollman. Like
the time you slandered some poor guy by name because you thought I was
in BC.

Bwahahaha! You're a l33t h4x0r alright. Go back to arguing politics...

IHM
Tony
2005-05-27 19:21:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by IHM
Bwahahaha! You're a l33t h4x0r alright. Go back to arguing politics...
IHM
LMAO!! Predictable. Why I opened the newsgroup I swear to God, just to
answer your post that I knew was there. No one with a brain will fall for
it.

Too dumb for further respond.

T-Man
h***@yahoo.com
2005-05-27 19:10:52 UTC
Permalink
You got me. There are really 275000 people using Cogeco as an ISP.
Tony
2005-05-27 19:23:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.com
You got me. There are really 275000 people using Cogeco as an ISP.
. . and ALL have the same IP . . LMAO!

The alter ego enters. Not funny really . pathetic. . .

T-Man
Organfreak
2005-05-27 19:23:38 UTC
Permalink
On or aboutFri, 27 May 2005 12:56:50 -0400, someone purporting to be
Post by Tony
The only poster in this group that posts from cogeco with an IP just about
exact is 'IHM' - again - this time on a different nym his 5th or 6th flame
nym. He is a friend of Organfreak's
How could he be a friend of mine when I have no idea who he is?
Tony
2005-05-27 19:41:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Organfreak
How could he be a friend of mine when I have no idea who he is?
Well, stop me . that is EXACTLY what I said when my parents first told
me about Santa Claus!

Time for the Organfreak mailing list song:

http://hammondeer.tripod.com/Download/Barney.mp3

That is why.

T-Man
Ray
2005-05-27 20:04:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Organfreak
How could he be a friend of mine when I have no idea who he is?
Well, stop me . that is EXACTLY what I said when my parents first told
me about Santa Claus!
http://hammondeer.tripod.com/Download/Barney.mp3
That is why.
T-Man
I know it's been a while since I said it, but Tone boy, go seek help.
Tony
2005-05-27 20:38:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray
I know it's been a while since I said it, but Tone boy, go seek help.
After your last escapade of going *COMPLETELY NUTS* in this newsgroup with
spamming, counterfeit posting and endless drivel. YOU are the last person
who should suggest *anything to anybody*.

That suggestion is free help for *you*.

T-Man

Lord Valve
2005-05-23 16:21:25 UTC
Permalink
Dont pity me on my 'old' scooter - its classed as a 'historic vehicle'
So is a horse.

LV
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-23 16:35:04 UTC
Permalink
Hi Willie!

How ya doing Mr Redneck? Long time no hear!
Planned any tactical nuclear strikes on innocent civilians recently?
No? what about making totally baseless and whacko accusations about
'Londinistan' being overun with gay Jihadists? Um....no?

OK - what about making vague threats about the US' nuclear arms being
targeted at the UK and Europe (its certainly nice to know who your
allies are)

Played your fake organ today?

Voted for any neo fascists today?

Come on Willie - your letting the side down. How am I going to convince
the other Europeans that your country is teetering on becoming an
extreme right wing one party state - which is ripe for invasion by
hordes of European, wine drinking, cheese munching, commie pinko gay
Jihadists - UNLESS you can come up with more unhinged, rabid, frothing
at the mouth anti free-thinking postings??

We need you Willie - there is NOTHING as funny & entertaining as your
thought processes anywhere else on the web..

keep it coming fatty.

BH#2
Tony
2005-05-26 04:28:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
How am I going to convince
the other Europeans that your country is teetering on becoming an
extreme right wing one party state -
You are so Left "extreme right wing" is what most view as 'moderate'.

I got news for you, the largest voting area in Germany just turned to
Conservative candidates or won, One of those two. . It was news. Schroeder
is in trouble, I believe. (there goes Martin mad again)

(that was funny wasn't it someone catching Martin trying to get some 'net
cop entity' to come in and remove people *he* did not agree with)

It is really interesting how the UK people today affix themselves with
Europe where the older UK people, I have talked to them, took pride in being
separated from Europe and identified more with the US and Commonwealth Try
calling a G-Generation UK person 70+ (far superior Brit people than modern
UK, 'Neo-Euros', imo) a 'European'.

Didn't Thatcher warn against "alien cultures" swarming the UK?

It would almost be an equal, to be like. today, Japan, also an island
country, affixing itself with the Koreas and China
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
Why waste your breath on ppl who won't ever take a single point from
you? Why not enjoy conversing with like-minded people instead, like
me, for instance?
That is interesting. You are agreeing way-out, wacky-Left writings/rants of
Hicks? Well . . . I did not think you were quite that radical .
. At least you are on record.
You can read Hicks writing and it almost looks like Lee Harvey Oswald's,
SDS, or the Symbionese Liberation Army, well Organfreak, I did not you
were quite that radical. I am disappointed I thought you got out of that in
the 70s.
Yeah, OF. clench the fist!!!! :) Conspiracies everywhere
................

T-Man
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-26 08:24:27 UTC
Permalink
T-Man

Your observation about my "wacky-Left writings/rants" reinforces my
original posts when we first locked horns on here ages ago....

You percieve me as being waaaaay out to the left - but that is because
as I originally claimed that US politics is so skewed to the right that
anything outside of YOUR mainstream approach seems like the point of
view of a terrorist supporting, mad anti US communist...Jihadist,
whatever

US politics is VASTLY skewed to the right - to call someone a Liberal
in the US is firstly, usually meant in a derogatory way- IE its used as
an insult . In the UK to be a Liberal puts you very much in the middle
of the road of politics - and tends to mean that your kind of neither
one thing or another!

In your country to be a (shock horror!!!) Liberal it seems to mean that
your a subversive....

Another thing worth considering - its just my opinion so dont blow a
fuse - your have an over regimented, inflexable outlook on life. Your
theories on what does or doesnt constitute 'jazz' according to your
narrowly defined values tells me much about your general approach to
anything.

When I cut & paste an email onto here from my black friend on the East
Coast about her recent experiences down south where a small town had a
sign saying "Coons Spiks, Blacks and Jews not welcome" hanging up by
the roadsie on the main route into town - you utterley refused to
believe it was true - and accused me of making the whole thing up.

That tells me all I need to know about the huge reality gap between
what you percieve to be true - and what actually IS true. Faced with
evidence of something unpalatable about your own country you simply
stuck your head in the sand and made out the facts of southern racism
in the 21st century was just the ranting of a raving leftie who was out
to do down your country.

Quiite simply - your head is up your arse - which is why you cant see
what - in the words of another dangerous raving leftie (Marvin Gaye) -
whats going on.

Now wasnt that a civilised posting?

Just to spoil it - youre pleased to be compared to this US president? I
think you will come to regret that position in time - there where
probably poeple who said the same thing about Nixon before Watergate..

Mind you - you think... Colonel Oliver North was someone to be admired
- if you set your standards THAT low I suppose anyone is an improvement
over a proven, anti - democratic, right wing liar.

Now you can try and counter my points - but lets face it - thats not
what you want to do is it? What you want to do is find some kind of
'smoking gun' that would irrefutably link me with some terroist
organisation, or the Communist Party..or some other dastardly group

Then you could object to my opinions in that 'highly intelligent &
informed form' of US politics:

You know what I mean - its where you gather underneath the stars &
stripes and chant "USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!
USA! USA! USA! " until everyone else gets fed up and goes home....

Its pathetic.

Bill Hicks the Second.

Real Bill Hicks Quotes for your consideration:

"George Bush says 'we are losing the war on drugs'. Well you know what
that implies? There's a war going on, and people on drugs are winning
it! Well what does that tell you about drugs? Some smart, creative
motherfuckers on that side."

"Supreme Court says pornography is anything without artistic merit that
causes sexual thoughts. No artistic merit, causes sexual thoughts. Hmmm
. . . sounds like every commercial on TV doesn't it?"

"By the way, if anyone here is in advertising or marketing, kill
yourself. No, this is not a joke: kill yourself . . . I know what the
marketing people are thinking now too: 'Oh. He's going for that
anti-marketing dollar. That's a good market.' Oh man, I am not doing
that, you fucking evil scumbags."

"If the FBI's motivating factor for busting down the Koresh compound
was child abuse, how come we never see Bradley tanks smashing into
Catholic churches?"
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-26 08:39:19 UTC
Permalink
"Didn't Thatcher warn against "alien cultures" swarming the UK?"

Wow - Thatcher believed in life in outer space?????

In that case she has gone up one rung on the 'ladder of scum' - one
rung from the bottom where she resides with Reagan, General Pinochet,
Ollie North...Pat Robertson, Jesse Helmes, Willie Whitaker and other
neo fascist shitbags.

I am not surprised you liked her - Margerat Thatcher was a racist, a
snob, an imperialist, industry/community wrecking, right wing witch -
who despite her 'popularity' in the 1980s is seen as one of the most
divisive and damaging Prime Ministers this country ever had.

You should have lived here in the 80's - you'd would have loved it.

BH#2
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-26 15:20:17 UTC
Permalink
Sir Organ Freak,

Youve gone and done it now- Expect this is the next 24
hours......"You're a commie pal"

Because I think Bush is a complete.......(fill in your own derogatory
term here) T-man actually accused me of celebrating ("jumping for joy")
on 9/11...thats how whacko it has got on here in the past. He would
like to think that anyone who isnt a card carrying Neo Con supporter is
a baby eating, murder loving terrorist sympathiser!! I dont expect you
to respond to this point - you dont want to do politics - and I can
respect that - espeically on this news group!

Anyway - I forgot to tell you that I had perused your website some
years ago - and found the tips about organ bass inspirational & very
educational...(printed it off) especially when you confirmed that much
of the time the 'greats ' were just toe tapping on one pedal to get
that pumping sound under the left hand bassline!

What a relief - if I hadnt had that comfirmed on your site - i think I
would have slit my wrists in frustration at my inabilty to pedal most
of the bass lines I can actually play..which isnt that many anyway!!!!

So for that ...I owe you a drink! If you ever come to London and need a
beaut of a Hammond C3 to jam on - just shout!

William Hicks The Second
Organfreak
2005-05-26 15:44:39 UTC
Permalink
On or about26 May 2005 08:20:17 -0700, someone purporting to be "Bill
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
Sir Organ Freak,
Youve gone and done it now- Expect this is the next 24
hours......"You're a commie pal"
Oh, I don't care. I know what I am and amn't. I'm a socialist to the
extent that I think the very rich need to share more with the truly
disadvantaged. That's the concept that gets conservatives so upset
(read, scared) that we're going to take away all their "hard-earned"
cash and stuff.
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
Because I think Bush is a complete.......(fill in your own derogatory
term here) T-man actually accused me of celebrating ("jumping for joy")
on 9/11...thats how whacko it has got on here in the past.
I know, I saw it. Just turn the other cheek; it's ridiculous on its
face. 9/11 began a whole new reality for Americans, one that most of
the rest of the world has been living in for some time. I think the
disagreement on terrorism is simply about how to respond to it. Clue:
I doubt we should nuke Mecca. (More below on what I'm really
interested in--)
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
Anyway - I forgot to tell you that I had perused your website some
years ago - and found the tips about organ bass inspirational & very
educational...(printed it off) especially when you confirmed that much
of the time the 'greats ' were just toe tapping on one pedal to get
that pumping sound under the left hand bassline!
What a relief - if I hadnt had that comfirmed on your site - i think I
would have slit my wrists in frustration at my inabilty to pedal most
of the bass lines I can actually play..which isnt that many anyway!!!!
Thanks for that Greg. Of course, I went through the same epiphany, but
I learned about it by watching and listening. At first I thought my
eyes were deceiving me; the myth of the pedals has been so ingrained
in all of us. My response, in putting up that site, was to get mad.
Mad that Smith fostered this bullshit, which appeared regularly in
interviews, in Keybored Mag, and on album liner notes. Mad that
certain people said, "Don't bother trying to explain this, it's a
black art and a secret, an if they don't get it they never will."
Horseshit! So many talented people wasted so much time and effort
barking up the wrong tree. Just think what might have happened if
Smith had been willing to teach this honestly to whomever asked! Then
McDuff came along and confirmed everything for me-- he was totally
honest and transparent about how it's done.

At the time this discussion was first going on on the Internet, there
were many doubters. A famous jazz organist came on using a nym and
tried to tell the truth; he was shouted-down by the ignorant. I'm
proud that since my page went up, the tapping method has become
accepted by the masses as the "way it's done." I'm no great player,
but I'm glad I made this contribution.
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
So for that ...I owe you a drink! If you ever come to London and need a
beaut of a Hammond C3 to jam on - just shout!
Thanks man. I haven't made it across the pond yet, but I would love to
sometime. However, I *will not* ride on the back of your scooter <g>.

-Scooter
Lord Valve
2005-05-26 16:29:17 UTC
Permalink
Get a room.

LV
Post by Organfreak
On or about26 May 2005 08:20:17 -0700, someone purporting to be "Bill
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
Sir Organ Freak,
Youve gone and done it now- Expect this is the next 24
hours......"You're a commie pal"
Oh, I don't care. I know what I am and amn't. I'm a socialist to the
extent that I think the very rich need to share more with the truly
disadvantaged. That's the concept that gets conservatives so upset
(read, scared) that we're going to take away all their "hard-earned"
cash and stuff.
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
Because I think Bush is a complete.......(fill in your own derogatory
term here) T-man actually accused me of celebrating ("jumping for joy")
on 9/11...thats how whacko it has got on here in the past.
I know, I saw it. Just turn the other cheek; it's ridiculous on its
face. 9/11 began a whole new reality for Americans, one that most of
the rest of the world has been living in for some time. I think the
I doubt we should nuke Mecca. (More below on what I'm really
interested in--)
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
Anyway - I forgot to tell you that I had perused your website some
years ago - and found the tips about organ bass inspirational & very
educational...(printed it off) especially when you confirmed that much
of the time the 'greats ' were just toe tapping on one pedal to get
that pumping sound under the left hand bassline!
What a relief - if I hadnt had that comfirmed on your site - i think I
would have slit my wrists in frustration at my inabilty to pedal most
of the bass lines I can actually play..which isnt that many anyway!!!!
Thanks for that Greg. Of course, I went through the same epiphany, but
I learned about it by watching and listening. At first I thought my
eyes were deceiving me; the myth of the pedals has been so ingrained
in all of us. My response, in putting up that site, was to get mad.
Mad that Smith fostered this bullshit, which appeared regularly in
interviews, in Keybored Mag, and on album liner notes. Mad that
certain people said, "Don't bother trying to explain this, it's a
black art and a secret, an if they don't get it they never will."
Horseshit! So many talented people wasted so much time and effort
barking up the wrong tree. Just think what might have happened if
Smith had been willing to teach this honestly to whomever asked! Then
McDuff came along and confirmed everything for me-- he was totally
honest and transparent about how it's done.
At the time this discussion was first going on on the Internet, there
were many doubters. A famous jazz organist came on using a nym and
tried to tell the truth; he was shouted-down by the ignorant. I'm
proud that since my page went up, the tapping method has become
accepted by the masses as the "way it's done." I'm no great player,
but I'm glad I made this contribution.
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
So for that ...I owe you a drink! If you ever come to London and need a
beaut of a Hammond C3 to jam on - just shout!
Thanks man. I haven't made it across the pond yet, but I would love to
sometime. However, I *will not* ride on the back of your scooter <g>.
-Scooter
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-26 16:35:02 UTC
Permalink
Ha ha!

I know what you mean about the Smith/pedal propaganda - before i knew
even the first thing about Hammond jazz - I remeber listening to Smith
et al - and thinking " Hmm - how can that be possible to get to work on
up tempo tunes - I dont get it"

the funny thing is that it appears to have affected a few european
organists!

I am sure yoy know that Germanys Barbera Dennerlien and Englands Mike
Carr both use pedal sustain systems in order to allow them to play ALL
- and I mean ALL - the bass lines on the pedals..Barbera Dennerlien
even stops mid tune sometimes - puts he hands behiond her back and
plays be-bop basslines (IE damn fast!) with her feet! She has a midi'd
tonewheel organ & pedalboard and actually uses upright bass samples
instead of the Hammonds bass sounds

Mike Carr takes a similar approach - and he has had his gig rigs all
converted to pedal sustain - Ive watched Mike play close up a few times
and he really never seems to use left hand bass at all - apart from
doubling up on endings etc..he really is playing three different
thingsat the same time. I admire that approach - but have always elt
that the combination of left hand and tapping produces some super fat
bass - so I for one probably wont ever have sustain fitted. hell - If I
am going to be honest - although I have rehearsed/jammed playing pedals
- I still havent done a gig on pedals yet - my current band is very
much in the James Brown funk kind of pocket - so an actual bass player
is really the only way to cover it - unless of course I become as good
as Sonny Burke over-night!!!! I wish...

If you aint heard him yet - You will love Sonny Burke! I garauntee it!

BH#2
Organfreak
2005-05-26 16:45:55 UTC
Permalink
On or about26 May 2005 09:35:02 -0700, someone purporting to be "Bill
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
the funny thing is that it appears to have affected a few european
organists!
I am sure yoy know that Germanys Barbera Dennerlien and Englands Mike
Carr both use pedal sustain systems in order to allow them to play ALL
- and I mean ALL - the bass lines on the pedals..
Yeah, I know about them, have heard them as well as the amazing Bobby
Jones of Buffalo. Here's where I stand: whatever works for you is OK
with me, and I enjoy (some of) those players. But for me, I simply
prefer the sound of Hammond LH bass with pedal support. To me, nothing
sounds better than that. (Cue: Bellomy.) It's the "chuff-chuff" sound
it makes, like a steam engine. That's part of the organ jazz mystique,
in my book. If I wanted a "string bass sound" I would hire a string
bass player (over my dead body).

Plus, as I have written ad infinitum, if the technique is used to its
fullest extent, one has much more dynamic control of the bass than
with just plain pedals, which are ON of OFF. Now we have choices:
Plain LH
LH with a tap
LH with full parallel walking pedals
Plain pedals.

-OF
Organfreak
2005-05-26 16:47:42 UTC
Permalink
On or aboutThu, 26 May 2005 16:45:55 GMT, someone purporting to be
Post by Organfreak
On or about26 May 2005 09:35:02 -0700, someone purporting to be "Bill
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
the funny thing is that it appears to have affected a few european
organists!
I am sure yoy know that Germanys Barbera Dennerlien and Englands Mike
Carr both use pedal sustain systems in order to allow them to play ALL
- and I mean ALL - the bass lines on the pedals..
Yeah, I know about them, have heard them as well as the amazing Bobby
Jones of Buffalo. Here's where I stand: whatever works for you is OK
with me, and I enjoy (some of) those players. But for me, I simply
prefer the sound of Hammond LH bass with pedal support. To me, nothing
sounds better than that. (Cue: Bellomy.) It's the "chuff-chuff" sound
it makes, like a steam engine. That's part of the organ jazz mystique,
in my book. If I wanted a "string bass sound" I would hire a string
bass player (over my dead body).
Plus, as I have written ad infinitum, if the technique is used to its
fullest extent, one has much more dynamic control of the bass than
Plain LH
LH with a tap
LH with full parallel walking pedals
Plain pedals.
Oh, and I still haven't received an answer to my fundamental question:
What the hell's so bad about a "cunt"??? I love 'em!

-OF
Tony
2005-05-26 17:59:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Organfreak
What the hell's so bad about a "cunt"??? I love 'em!
"C**t* used in a pejorative sense is an old vernacular, shortened for
"c**tLAPPER". At one time in the far past this was a MAJOR insulting
indicating 'erectile dysfunction', 'lack of manhood' - thusly needing to
'lap' and 'lowlife' as at one time oral sex was considered dirty and
disgusting (Clinton took it to new heights in recent times - now common with
teenyboppers since)

In the profane vernacular pejorative it indicates:

Underhanded, prick, lowlife, asshole with no scruples

Example of a usage:

You tell your neighbor you saw something unbelievably cheap on Ebay. You go
to bid and find HE used the 'Buy It Now' and bought it from under you - you
might say, "see what that guy did?!! Man, he is a cunt!"

A MAJOR insult.

T-Man
h***@yahoo.com
2005-05-27 15:05:23 UTC
Permalink
Not even close to correct.

Slang for the female genitalia. There is no other real definition, but
in the absence of fact Tony will just create some. I could post a few
hundred links, but I'm not going to do Tony's research for him.
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-26 18:47:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Organfreak
On or aboutThu, 26 May 2005 16:45:55 GMT, someone purporting to be
Post by Organfreak
On or about26 May 2005 09:35:02 -0700, someone purporting to be "Bill
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
the funny thing is that it appears to have affected a few european
organists!
I am sure yoy know that Germanys Barbera Dennerlien and Englands Mike
Carr both use pedal sustain systems in order to allow them to play ALL
- and I mean ALL - the bass lines on the pedals..
Yeah, I know about them, have heard them as well as the amazing Bobby
Jones of Buffalo. Here's where I stand: whatever works for you is OK
with me, and I enjoy (some of) those players. But for me, I simply
prefer the sound of Hammond LH bass with pedal support. To me, nothing
sounds better than that. (Cue: Bellomy.) It's the "chuff-chuff" sound
it makes, like a steam engine. That's part of the organ jazz mystique,
in my book. If I wanted a "string bass sound" I would hire a string
bass player (over my dead body).
Plus, as I have written ad infinitum, if the technique is used to its
fullest extent, one has much more dynamic control of the bass than
Plain LH
LH with a tap
LH with full parallel walking pedals
Plain pedals.
What the hell's so bad about a "cunt"??? I love 'em!
-OF
Organ Freak!

Is T man the most prime example of a man with a sense of humour bypass?
Incredible!

Tony - OF COURSE I condemn It - Ive posted on hear more than once
saying that Im opposed to violence no matter who the purpotrators are -
and who the victims are - do a search - I know for a fact tnat its in
here somewhere.
You only hear what you want to hear - you brilliantly (sarcasm!) ignore
what I say when it wont compute with this image of me as some raving
anarchist/terrorist baby eating gay pinko Euro type that you want to
believe in. But thats just not how it is.

you on the other hand condemn violence when it suits you - but when it
comes to Hiroshima you say it was justified...death sentance
...justified....and when you and Willie casually remind us that we in
Europe are targeted by US nuclear missiles and kind of hint that we
should 'watch it' - and THEN GO ON TO STATE that if there is another
terror hit in mainland North America ZAP!! North korea wont be there
for much longer just for starters..???????!!!!!!

I have to ask you why it is YOU GUYS (you and Willie) who are the ones
prepared to use MASSIVE violence against innocents???

and Im the violent "he wont condemn" TERRORism wierdo?

pfffft! away with you....

organ Freak - thank you for reminding me about the stable side of the
American mind set...all other conversations with those two or pointless
anymore..

Anyway - very nice and helpful to get that pedal advise from someone
who I know has advised jazz organ players not to get hung up over
pedaling technique with a brilliant kind of 'fuck it' attitude..and how
pulling the right face when hitting some particular note makes it sound
better! How would you 'notate' that???

I couldnt agree more - hahaha!

Bh#2
Tony
2005-05-26 21:05:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
Tony - OF COURSE I condemn It - Ive posted on hear more than once
saying that Im opposed to violence no matter who the purpotrators are -
and who the victims are - do a search - I know for a fact tnat its in
here somewhere.
Not the real world.

It takes violence to stop evil. It took violence to preserve the US in the
Civil War. It took violence to defend London in the Battle of Britain. It
took violence to free the Nazi death camps. It took violence to stop
Imperial Japan and their insanely nurderous armed forces. It took violence
to stop the mass killings in Bosnia. it will take violence and preemption to
stop International Terror. It takes violence sometimes in prison to quell a
riot - your problem is your heart is with the inmates.

From *cavemen* up . .

human history has shown unless they are ready to defend with equal or
greater violence, they will be destroyed, overrun and murdered. *You*
don't see reality. The nature of the beast. The reason for the Churchillian
principle of deterance, which is: our defending violence is precalculated to
make it not worth the while - THIS actually causes *peace* - not a
fantasyland of 'niceness', plattitude and pollyanna. Democratization also
causes peace and future peace because democracies are more concerned with
growth and prosperity.

The Churchillian principle of M.A.D., mutually assured destruction kept the
peace for over 50 years in the Cold War, enabling later freedom to countries
under the 'Iron Curtain'. Deterannce works with the hope of . . never
need to use violence.

As both candidates in the US election said. "The greatest threat today is
nuclear proliferation." The possibility of calamity and holocaust in the
future is real. There is NO ROOM for error - in prevention - in fact, if
there is error it HAS to be on the side of overcaution and preemption - some
can't believe this because of the relative peace for 60 years - there is no
'free pass' that world calmity could not happen again to another
generation - next time it is sure to be nuclear - and there are VERY ACTIVE
people in the world just trying to do that - must it take violence to stop
it - . . . you bet.

You a person who condemn religion - you sound like a Quaker.

T-Man
"BiG dAvE" <lakeshore<removeforspam>
2005-05-27 00:40:09 UTC
Permalink
Tony... what planet are you from! violence could never spawn peace.... it
breeds contempt and more violence. Give your head a damned good shake.... it
seems to me that your attitude has nothing to do with peace... but, has to
do with conquering, controlling, and acquisition! That hardly adds up to
peace and good will?
BiG dAvE
Post by Tony
Not the real world.
It takes violence to stop evil. It took violence to preserve the US in the
Civil War. It took violence to defend London in the Battle of Britain. It
took violence to free the Nazi death camps. It took violence to stop
Imperial Japan and their insanely nurderous armed forces. It took violence
to stop the mass killings in Bosnia. it will take violence and preemption to
stop International Terror. It takes violence sometimes in prison to quell a
riot - your problem is your heart is with the inmates.
From *cavemen* up . .
human history has shown unless they are ready to defend with equal or
greater violence, they will be destroyed, overrun and murdered. *You*
don't see reality. The nature of the beast. The reason for the
Churchillian
Post by Tony
principle of deterance, which is: our defending violence is precalculated to
make it not worth the while - THIS actually causes *peace* - not a
fantasyland of 'niceness', plattitude and pollyanna. Democratization also
causes peace and future peace because democracies are more concerned with
growth and prosperity.
The Churchillian principle of M.A.D., mutually assured destruction kept the
peace for over 50 years in the Cold War, enabling later freedom to countries
under the 'Iron Curtain'. Deterannce works with the hope of . . never
need to use violence.
As both candidates in the US election said. "The greatest threat today is
nuclear proliferation." The possibility of calamity and holocaust in the
future is real. There is NO ROOM for error - in prevention - in fact, if
there is error it HAS to be on the side of overcaution and preemption - some
can't believe this because of the relative peace for 60 years - there is no
'free pass' that world calmity could not happen again to another
generation - next time it is sure to be nuclear - and there are VERY ACTIVE
people in the world just trying to do that - must it take violence to stop
it - . . . you bet.
You a person who condemn religion - you sound like a Quaker.
T-Man
Tony
2005-05-27 01:38:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by "BiG dAvE" <lakeshore<removeforspam>
Tony... what planet are you from! violence could never spawn peace.... it
breeds contempt and more violence. Give your head a damned good shake.... it
seems to me that your attitude has nothing to do with peace... but, has to
do with conquering, controlling, and acquisition! That hardly adds up to
peace and good will?
BiG dAvE
BiG dAvE,

You missed my point. *Deterance* causes peace - but I ask you politely.
Please cite the way YOU would have handled.

1. Imperial Japan
2. Fascist Germany
3. Deterring the Soviets before Reagon brought them down by bankrupting them
in a new arms race.
4. More recently: the genocide in Bosnia
5. Answering 9/11 if a couple of Toronto tower went down instead
6. Internation terrorism

Now . . I take it that *being nice and peaceful* (from what you wrote)
would solve all the above problems?

I honestly would like to know how "peace" would have solved the above
problem. Neville Chamberlain came off a plane with a signature from Hitler
and said "peace in our time!!!". . . . his approach was a
complete failure. That is when Churchill who was spoken about as a 'nut'
came out front as the correct approach.

So Dave, how would you have handled it. Would you have said. "OK. They
invaded Poland, so we will talk to them again and get another signature?"

T-Man
"BiG dAvE" <lakeshore<removeforspam>
2005-05-27 02:40:44 UTC
Permalink
Well, Tony... I above all believe "to thine own self be true"? I refuse to
be an 'arm chair' general, or politician, or policy maker! As you seem to
take great comfort in? All I know is the difference between right and wrong,
love and hate, war and peace... my existance is primarily that of an artist
and musician, the gifts that god gave me to make a difference in this world.

Tony... i don't believe in the persuasive powers of artillery, greed and
lies! My heros are mere humans like perhaps John Lennon, Ghandi, Mother
Theresa... to name a few... These people have helped to change the world by
their strength of conviction, a little creativity and a conviction that love
is power! Something contrary to your beliefs? I believe that if there were
more people on earth with love as their message (and not pay mere lip
service to it) the orb would mature! Things will get better... but, not
because of hate and bombardment!

So where do you stand on this 'love your brother' thing Tony? I think you
hide behind what you think is the power and might of the good ole USA... as
long as you feel safe and secure that no bomb will put you in your own
coffin.

Just try to love one person today Tony... (it's alot tougher than tossing a
bomb at a faceless human being in a crowd of families and people that have
the same needs as you do!)...and you'll no longer be part of the problem...
what do you think would happen to the world if love was easier to sell than
war? Quit buying into it Tony... have some guts and love somebody you hate!
That's how it starts... and have enough conviction to know that it ain't
gonna happen over night.

Hey, even you would change the way you think to save the planet wouldn't
you? So what's stopping you>? Only a mad man would continue doing the same
thing over and over again expecting to get a different result, don't you
think?
With Hope,
Post by Tony
Post by "BiG dAvE" <lakeshore<removeforspam>
Tony... what planet are you from! violence could never spawn peace.... it
breeds contempt and more violence. Give your head a damned good
shake....
Post by Tony
it
Post by "BiG dAvE" <lakeshore<removeforspam>
seems to me that your attitude has nothing to do with peace... but, has to
do with conquering, controlling, and acquisition! That hardly adds up to
peace and good will?
BiG dAvE
You missed my point. *Deterance* causes peace - but I ask you politely.
Please cite the way YOU would have handled.
1. Imperial Japan
2. Fascist Germany
3. Deterring the Soviets before Reagon brought them down by bankrupting them
in a new arms race.
4. More recently: the genocide in Bosnia
5. Answering 9/11 if a couple of Toronto tower went down instead
6. Internation terrorism
Now . . I take it that *being nice and peaceful* (from what you wrote)
would solve all the above problems?
I honestly would like to know how "peace" would have solved the above
problem. Neville Chamberlain came off a plane with a signature from Hitler
and said "peace in our time!!!". . . . his approach was a
complete failure. That is when Churchill who was spoken about as a 'nut'
came out front as the correct approach.
So Dave, how would you have handled it. Would you have said. "OK. They
invaded Poland, so we will talk to them again and get another signature?"
T-Man
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-27 09:48:53 UTC
Permalink
You are not comparing like with like here T man

I do not see how there is a comparison between a world war/conflict -
and George W Bush fixing evidence to support his war for oil..

..Its not the same thing at all - and you insistance in trying to win
some A/B comparison argumnent just shows what a feeble grip you have on
internatioal affairs/politics and the real nature if US Foreign Policy.

This 'war' was dreamed up by The Project For The New American Century
in 1998.

Bh#2
Tony
2005-05-27 14:44:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
You are not comparing like with like here T man
I do not see how there is a comparison between a world war/conflict -
and George W Bush fixing evidence to support his war for oil..
You are insane or just 'stoned' too much.

I am glad I get intelligent email and other interfaces, even some
interesting exchanges by some academicians or else I would be thinking I was
Einstein or something from the *dumb* . . . the *dumb* .
.writings like Hicks. Hicks has a conspiracy for everything. Hicks is
basically a * 'Kool-Aid' drinker of the Neo-Euro 'hate Bush' band of
discontents and probably lives on their websites. The funny part is: Europe
is starting to move in the opposite direction. With the largest portion of
Germany recently cited as going Conservative. A big mess to clean up over
there since Cole.

Unfortunately for Hicks in the UK - if Labor loses for being too friendly to
the US - the Conservatives in the UK come in and are even more friendly -
so the man is frustrated . deeply . . deeply . frustrated
that *SOMEONE DOE NOT DO SOMETHING ABOUT ALL THESE CONSPIRACIES!!!!!*
lmao!

The Unibomber was not too much worst saying the US had plotted and conspired
to bombard him in his little shack with radiation from satellites . .
ah-oh . . . maybe I should not have said that. LOL! Hey Hicks, is 'W'
bombarded you with electro-magnetic radiation from satellites too?

*They used to chase guys like Hicks around with butterfly nets* or pull out
the electric-shock machines. . . cerebral limitation . . . .
. . like I said a conspiracy for everything . .

(* Kool-Aid drinker: refers to the 900 or so who died at Jonestown as fools
*conforming* to drink cyanide from the leadership commands.)

T-Man
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-27 14:52:26 UTC
Permalink
T man - catch up!

" if Labor loses for being too friendly to the US - the Conservatives
in the UK come in and are even more friendly !

New Labour won the UK General Election three weeks ago!!!!!

See - I told you that you are out of touch, ignorant and badly
informed. And teh same goes for the rest of your mad accusations and
'well wide of the mark' observations.

By the way - PLEASE try and appreciate that I live in a different
country with a different culture etc - what the hell Kool Aid is I dont
know - or care. Just more proof of your incorrect, homogenised outlook
of the rest of the world.

Now go away - im not bothering to lower myself to talk to you any more
- you are beneath me....by a looooong way.

another thing - we are all guilty of bad spelling on this NG - but your
posts are starting to make less & less sense grammatically - as well as
being utter fucking bollox!

BH#2
h***@yahoo.com
2005-05-27 15:07:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Deterring the Soviets before Reagon brought them down by bankrupting them
in a new arms race.
So violence isn't the only way to resolve things? Make up your mind
you addled fool! Especially if you have such "strong" opinions of
things.
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-27 15:12:33 UTC
Permalink
Hammond Man,

Good post sir! But logic is not Tonys strong point.

Bh#2
Tony
2005-05-26 17:39:17 UTC
Permalink
term here) T-man actually accused me of celebrating > >("jumping for
joy")
on 9/11...thats how whacko it has got on here in the past.
I know, I saw it. Just turn the other cheek; it's ridiculous > on its
face. 9/11 began a whole new reality for Americans
The hell it isn't ridiculous this guy has said almost nothing...
.NOTHING . . negative about . Bin Ladin's organization and the
Zarcowie organization. My guess is that he supports the insurgency in Iraq.
Would not even condemn Zarcowie after he *beheaded alive* a middle-aged
British woman. Has no comtempt for this except cursory disclaimer BUT LOTS
and LOTs of contempt for the US - this guy make Neville Chamberlain appear
like 'Bomber Harris'.

It is a problem in England especailly London with guys like Hicks. They are
bringing legislation to make it illegal to give sympathy and support to
terrorist organizations or even celebrate terrorist events or endorse
terrorist leaders, similiar to the anti-Nazi laws in Germany. This give the
Metropolitan Police more scope for arrest.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck - IT's a
DUCK!!!

T-Man
Organfreak
2005-05-26 22:51:22 UTC
Permalink
On or aboutThu, 26 May 2005 13:39:17 -0400, someone purporting to be
Post by Tony
term here) T-man actually accused me of celebrating > >("jumping for
joy")
on 9/11...thats how whacko it has got on here in the past.
I know, I saw it. Just turn the other cheek; it's ridiculous > on its
face. 9/11 began a whole new reality for Americans
The hell it isn't ridiculous this guy has said almost nothing...
.NOTHING . . negative about . Bin Ladin's organization and the
Zarcowie organization. My guess is that he supports the insurgency in Iraq.
Would not even condemn Zarcowie after he *beheaded alive* a middle-aged
British woman. Has no comtempt for this except cursory disclaimer BUT LOTS
and LOTs of contempt for the US - this guy make Neville Chamberlain appear
like 'Bomber Harris'.
It is a problem in England especailly London with guys like Hicks. They are
bringing legislation to make it illegal to give sympathy and support to
terrorist organizations or even celebrate terrorist events or endorse
terrorist leaders, similiar to the anti-Nazi laws in Germany. This give the
Metropolitan Police more scope for arrest.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck - IT's a
DUCK!!!
OK, I'll take the bait. What you are missing is that *everyone* who is
not insane condems this shit. It goes without saying. Criticism of the
U.S. for its handling of the crisis is not the same as approval of
terrorism. I'll refrain from calling you a name, like "nitwit."

-OF
Tony
2005-05-27 01:03:06 UTC
Permalink
"Organfreak" <***@plunk.plink> wrote

I'll refrain from calling you a name, like "nitwit."
-OF
Me too. There you go a 'me too' post. I'll refrain also from calling you an
"imbecile".

People can be nice and refrain.

T-Man
Organfreak
2005-05-26 14:57:04 UTC
Permalink
On or aboutThu, 26 May 2005 00:28:04 -0400, someone purporting to be
Post by Tony
Post by Organfreak
Why waste your breath on ppl who won't ever take a single point from
you? Why not enjoy conversing with like-minded people instead, like
me, for instance?
That is interesting. You are agreeing way-out, wacky-Left writings/rants of
Hicks? Well . . . I did not think you were quite that radical .
. At least you are on record.
You can read Hicks writing and it almost looks like Lee Harvey Oswald's,
SDS, or the Symbionese Liberation Army, well Organfreak, I did not you
were quite that radical. I am disappointed I thought you got out of that in
the 70s.
Yeah, OF. clench the fist!!!! :) Conspiracies everywhere
................
I want to stay out of the, er, "political" discussions in this group
for various reasons. But no, I don't consider myself to be radical at
all. I'm an honest-to-god, card-carrying "Lib," not a dirty word. I
don't see "Bill's" writings as radical either. He is right: the center
has moved far to the right in recent years.

-OF
Tony
2005-05-26 17:17:10 UTC
Permalink
"Organfreak" <***@plunk.plink> wrote

. But no, I don't consider myself to be radical at
Post by Organfreak
all. I'm an honest-to-god, card-carrying "Lib," not a dirty word. I
don't see "Bill's" writings as radical either. He is right: the center
has moved far to the right in recent years.
Well that is a first. The first time I have ever read anyone saying articles
by Hicks in support of Fidel Castro and the Nicaragua Communist Sandinistas
are 'middle'. (among a lot worst remarks) In fact, in my opinion, it isn't
even Left - it is far, far, far, 'nutty' Left, imo. There are also
different type os Libs. Some with academic argument, however wrong or right
and the 'nutty-Left', Michael Moore school. One side has damaged the other,
in my view from serious public-majority contention.

Look at the last election. Hillary Clinton has calculated this and has moved
to the center hoping for a Presidential bid, in fact, Hillary's Iraq policy
is almost (now) identical to 'W''s. She needs, 1 Red State and Ohia WITH the
same results as Kerry to be President on a safe margin. My view at this time
is that only Mayor Guilanni or Condi Rice (who says she will not run) can
beat her - but that could change with future events. My prediction is if
Hillary becomes President, MAJOR tax increases in the US including perhaps:
1. Value added tax or national sales tax 2. .No more interstate commerce-no
tax 3. Ebay taxes as on example 4. more. Only the Congress could restrain
this -

T-Man
Organfreak
2005-05-26 22:55:48 UTC
Permalink
On or aboutThu, 26 May 2005 13:17:10 -0400, someone purporting to be
Post by Organfreak
. But no, I don't consider myself to be radical at
Post by Organfreak
all. I'm an honest-to-god, card-carrying "Lib," not a dirty word. I
don't see "Bill's" writings as radical either. He is right: the center
has moved far to the right in recent years.
Well that is a first. The first time I have ever read anyone saying articles
by Hicks in support of Fidel Castro and the Nicaragua Communist Sandinistas
are 'middle'.
Criticising Reagan and his minions for CIRCUMVENTING the EXPRESS LAWS
passed by CONGRESS in regard to Nicaragua is not at all the same thing
as supporting the Sandanistas. These guys (our leaders) thumbed their
noses at the laws of this country and the intent of the law. If
Clinton had done that, he WOULD have been out on his ass!
Post by Organfreak
Look at the last election. Hillary Clinton has calculated this and has moved
to the center hoping for a Presidential bid, in fact, Hillary's Iraq policy
is almost (now) identical to 'W''s. She needs, 1 Red State and Ohia WITH the
same results as Kerry to be President on a safe margin. My view at this time
is that only Mayor Guilanni or Condi Rice (who says she will not run) can
beat her - but that could change with future events. My prediction is if
1. Value added tax or national sales tax 2. .No more interstate commerce-no
tax 3. Ebay taxes as on example 4. more. Only the Congress could restrain
this -
The only major tax "increase" likely to happen if she is elected is
the rolling back of the cynical, dishonest, and gigantic tax break for
the very rich that Bush and his buddies got through. Even many
traditional conservatives now oppose that tax cut as irresponsible.

-OF
Post by Organfreak
T-Man
Tony
2005-05-27 01:29:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Organfreak
Criticising Reagan and his minions for CIRCUMVENTING the EXPRESS LAWS
passed by CONGRESS in regard to Nicaragua is not at all the same thing
as supporting the Sandanistas. These guys (our leaders) thumbed their
noses at the laws of this country and the intent of the law. If
Clinton had done that, he WOULD have been out on his ass!
Ollie North is a Great American. Clinton got away with 100 times that after
his impeachment by not being convicted, including lying under oath not to
mention the *despicable* personal conduct with an intern as young as his
daughter in the Presidential Oval Office. 100 years ago Clinton may have
been 'tarred and feathered'.
Post by Organfreak
The only major tax "increase" likely to happen if she is elected is
the rolling back of the cynical, dishonest, and gigantic tax break for
the very rich that Bush and his buddies got through. Even many
traditional conservatives now oppose that tax cut as irresponsible.
Yeah, maverick 'Republican' John McCain said that, who also cited Hillary
would be a great President (said the same about Kerry) on a CBS News
interview of the two of them after an Iraq tour.

Taxes need further cutting along with major reduction in government size.

There is no moral reason for a person to have to be forced to pay for
anything unless getting services back in value, imo.
Tax cuts provide taxes. Though sounding like an oxymoron it is proved true.
John Kennedy (who was a hawk to the right of Nixon on foreign affairs) also
cut taxes and it created more revenues. Hilliary would need massive revenues
to finance huge programs. MORE taxes are needed to be cut. ****There is also
a strong moral line between 'taxation' and 'confiscation'**** there has to
be a perceived value for 'taxation' of services received. Anything else is
just confiscation and socialist enforced wealth sharing. Confiscatory taxes
are the scourge of this planet, as I said before, in my opinion mixed with
regulation that stifles individual achievement

Having said the above, I will concur the Hillary is going to be difficult if
not formidable to defeat though many of my friends may disagree. She was
much more popular than Kerry who came a bit close himself. Add to that the
female vote AND MOST importantly her move going to the 'center' from Kerry
makes it more formidable in my take, as I said previously, perhaps only the
charismatic and well-liked, NY Mayor Rudolph Guliano can pull it off. Condy
might also by pulling a couple of blue States but won't run (would finally
be a real pianist in the White House too) - there is lots of time for things
to develop but her (Hillary) run has been calculated for *years* and with
one of the most cunning politicians of the 20th Century, Bill Clinton's;
input. My friends may disagree, like I said, but Hillary is going to be a
very tough candidate, I *will* concur that.

Hold on to your wallet.

T-Man
Tony
2005-05-27 02:00:55 UTC
Permalink
****There is also a strong moral line between 'taxation' and
'confiscation'**** there has to
be a perceived value for 'taxation' of services received. Anything else is
just confiscation and socialist enforced wealth sharing.
I might add, the US Constitution provides **no legal foundation at
all**<---- for anyone to come and steal and confiscate my, or anyone else's
hard earned money and give it to someone else. Supporting charities and
faith-based groups do a fine job of this. Confiscation is not taxation.

T-Man
h***@yahoo.com
2005-05-27 16:01:48 UTC
Permalink
Bah...single axis analysis of political bias (left vs right) is not
really used for any meaningful social political analysis. The fact you
keep talking about "Liberal group think" tell me that you are bereft of
ANY political knowledge or you have been completely brainwashed by your
own fascist "group think". The fascist right believes in "group think"
the libertarian left believes in the power of the free thinking
individual.

The fact you think the word "liberal" is some sort of insult proves it.
You're a neo-liberal fascist. Any way other than your way is the
wrong way. Any information that does not agree with your beliefs is
false. Big business and money rules all. Deregulate and let the
robber barons sit on the backs of the common man. It's so transparent
that it's laughable how much of a fascist right wing you are.
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-27 16:06:43 UTC
Permalink
Hammond Man, Organ Freak!

Thsi is music to my ears - I think the cavalry have arrived!

Cheers

BH#2
h***@yahoo.com
2005-05-27 16:12:20 UTC
Permalink
And I ride a horse. These internal combustion things are far to
digital for me ;)
Organfreak
2005-05-27 16:15:18 UTC
Permalink
On or about27 May 2005 09:06:43 -0700, someone purporting to be "Bill
Post by Bill Hicks the 2nd
Hammond Man, Organ Freak!
Thsi is music to my ears - I think the cavalry have arrived!
Cheers
BH#2
Not really, though. If you went into a battle of wits to find that
your opponents are unarmed, would you kill them? Walk away.

-OF
Tony
2005-05-26 04:59:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lord Valve
Dont pity me on my 'old' scooter - its classed as a 'historic vehicle'
So is a horse.
That is right. You want a *REAL* analog mount it has to be a horse. A
scooter is a *clone*.

T-Man
Bill Hicks the 2nd
2005-05-26 15:07:54 UTC
Permalink
T-man You are a genuine wierdo - ANALogue too

Bh#2
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