Discussion:
Again: Couuld any of the "experts" tell me what makes hammond oil special?
(too old to reply)
Shiva
2004-11-10 22:26:19 UTC
Permalink
Don't really want to be a pest, simply to get a plausible answer to the
dogmatic "use only Hammond oil".

Could anyone show me a data sheet, or at least some qualities
differentiating it from commonly available (over the counter) products?
Is it viscosity? Shear strength? Film strength? Detergency? Reactance with
[insert weird material here]? Foaming-resistance? Electroconductuivity?
WHAT? At a glance,
the tone generator, mechanically, seems to be a fairly simple set of
wick-oiled
[sintered?] bronze
bushings supporting a steel shaft, rotating at a pretty leisurely speed.
What
am I missing? Wick & felt oiling has been the defacto standard for
everything mechanical since - well, a darn long time ago. It was the
poor/lazy
man's gang oiler.
Gumming up due to impurities (as some sites imply)?
Silly. Organic oils will gum with age - nature of the beast. Simply not
inert. wicks will gum up, no matter what, and will usually be adequately
"unclogged" with "solvents" or thin oils (semantics here...)
The application is simply not demanding enough to warrant all the
hoopla - especially since the things (tonewheel generators) usually come to
us frozen with crap (dirt, oxides, resins, sulfates - i'm not a chemist),
and the oil's used to dissolve that crap (which, in turn, winds up either
in the felt or in the troths). No filtration system (other than the wicks
themselves (err... string)) is provided that I could make out, so the
"special" mail-order mystery oil (not to be confused with the Marvel red
stuff, which, btw, is a neat brew) turns into something similar to drain oil
as soon as it is applied.
I'm yet to see a tonewheel organ ruined due to improper (other than "lack
of") oiling.
Just for giggles, I've filled my M3 with *straight* 30-weight motor oil
(not the 5/30, which is ... a 5). Guess what? Longer startup times, no
increased pitch hunting (wow & flutter to us recording geeks), and, after a
quick kerosene rinse (a 20 cc oiling syringe and a shallow pan to catch the
overflow), and wicking out the synch/vibro scanner cup with a paper towel
(and a refill with clock oil), the same satrt=up times as before, now with a
*clean* lock at half-speed (shut the main switch off, letting the synch
motor slow down to ~1/3 speed (you'll hear the pitch if a key is pressed),
and then clicking it on again. Any techys out there with an opinion?
Tony
2004-11-11 00:52:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shiva
Don't really want to be a pest, simply to get a plausible answer to the
dogmatic "use only Hammond oil".
Could anyone show me a data sheet, or at least some qualities
differentiating it from commonly available (over the counter) products?
Is it viscosity? Shear strength? Film strength? Detergency? Reactance with
[insert weird material here]? Foaming-resistance? Electroconductuivity?
WHAT?
Why do you need all that oil technical input. It is easy. Use sewing machine
oil. Sewing machine oil or most of it, is the same or similar to the
non-detergent, non-paraffin base, SAE #15 turbine oil , from what I have
read, used in
Hammond generators. Hammond oil works well with my Flowbee too.

Real, branded as Hammond oil is cheap. Like
http://www.goffprof.com/shopping.jsp?p=39

The FAQ has information about oiling too.

http://theatreorgans.com/hammond/faq/hammond-faq_toc.html

Tony
Shiva
2004-11-14 19:07:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Shiva
Don't really want to be a pest, simply to get a plausible answer to the
dogmatic "use only Hammond oil".
Could anyone show me a data sheet, or at least some qualities
differentiating it from commonly available (over the counter) products?
Is it viscosity? Shear strength? Film strength? Detergency? Reactance with
[insert weird material here]? Foaming-resistance?
Electroconductuivity?
Post by Tony
Post by Shiva
WHAT?
Why do you need all that oil technical input. It is easy. Use sewing machine
oil. Sewing machine oil or most of it, is the same or similar to the
non-detergent, non-paraffin base, SAE #15 turbine oil , from what I have
read, used in
Hammond generators. Hammond oil works well with my Flowbee too.
Real, branded as Hammond oil is cheap. Like
http://www.goffprof.com/shopping.jsp?p=39
The FAQ has information about oiling too.
http://theatreorgans.com/hammond/faq/hammond-faq_toc.html
Tony
Thanks, Tony -
Basically what I wanted (needed?) to hear. The "clock oil" i've mentioned
is nothing special either ~ 10weight or less, i'd say, and comes in a handy
squeeze - bottle.
I was fairly sure it was straight forward, but then i was sure that
nothing could go wrong when I replaced (according to the instructions) the
break fluid in a 275GTB Ferrari (not mine, i just restored it) with a
purportedly "inert" synthetic fluid & destroyed everything non-metal in the
system.
All's well, though - got the action cleaned out & nice (amazing how much
crud accumulates in 50+ years, huh?) - a vacuum cleaner and a bunch of paint
brushes do wonders for stuff like that. The felt was pretty matted - down &
hard, but one of those toothbrush-sized wirebrushes fluffed it right up, and
the felts which keep the keys aligned (the round ones, have no idea what
they're called) simply spin around, so that the keys no longer ride on the
worn spots. Amazing what difference in feel that makes. Still have the top
f# missing one of the drawbars, but ...
</ramblin'>
Sorry 'bout the late "thanks", but i just had no free time lately. Don't
mean to be rude.
-dim
Lord Valve
2004-11-14 20:39:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shiva
Post by Tony
Post by Shiva
Don't really want to be a pest, simply to get a plausible answer to the
dogmatic "use only Hammond oil".
Could anyone show me a data sheet, or at least some qualities
differentiating it from commonly available (over the counter) products?
Is it viscosity? Shear strength? Film strength? Detergency? Reactance with
[insert weird material here]? Foaming-resistance?
Electroconductuivity?
Post by Tony
Post by Shiva
WHAT?
Why do you need all that oil technical input. It is easy. Use sewing
machine
Post by Tony
oil. Sewing machine oil or most of it, is the same or similar to the
non-detergent, non-paraffin base, SAE #15 turbine oil , from what I have
read, used in
Hammond generators. Hammond oil works well with my Flowbee too.
Real, branded as Hammond oil is cheap. Like
http://www.goffprof.com/shopping.jsp?p=39
The FAQ has information about oiling too.
http://theatreorgans.com/hammond/faq/hammond-faq_toc.html
Tony
Thanks, Tony -
Basically what I wanted (needed?) to hear. The "clock oil" i've mentioned
is nothing special either ~ 10weight or less, i'd say, and comes in a handy
squeeze - bottle.
I was fairly sure it was straight forward, but then i was sure that
nothing could go wrong when I replaced (according to the instructions) the
break fluid in a 275GTB Ferrari (not mine, i just restored it) with a
purportedly "inert" synthetic fluid & destroyed everything non-metal in the
system.
All's well, though - got the action cleaned out & nice (amazing how much
crud accumulates in 50+ years, huh?) - a vacuum cleaner and a bunch of paint
brushes do wonders for stuff like that. The felt was pretty matted - down &
hard, but one of those toothbrush-sized wirebrushes fluffed it right up, and
the felts which keep the keys aligned (the round ones, have no idea what
they're called) simply spin around, so that the keys no longer ride on the
worn spots. Amazing what difference in feel that makes. Still have the top
f# missing one of the drawbars, but ...
</ramblin'>
Sorry 'bout the late "thanks", but i just had no free time lately. Don't
mean to be rude.
-dim
There's actually a mil-spec number listed for Hammond TG oil
in the B-3 parts list, as there is for many parts used in
Hammond organs. Looking up the spec will tell you everything
you'd ever want to know about the properties of the oil.

LV
Shiva
2004-11-15 16:45:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lord Valve
Post by Shiva
Don't really want to be a pest, simply to get a plausible answer to the
dogmatic "use only Hammond oil".
<snip>
Post by Lord Valve
There's actually a mil-spec number listed for Hammond TG oil
in the B-3 parts list, as there is for many parts used in
Hammond organs. Looking up the spec will tell you everything
you'd ever want to know about the properties of the oil.
LV
Is it 'cos the army folk used a portable-ish Hammond (seem to remember
seeing something on the net about it)? Just did a quick search on google,
and nothing useful comes up (at this point, it's just curiosity - the tone
gen is whisper-quiet, even with the cover off).
When I first got it going, it made a mild clicking sound, which turned out
to be a missing spring (there are 2) 'tween the two aluminum disks by the
synch motor (don't know what they're called, seem to be either an (a)
conical slip clutch or (b) synch motor pulse/shock absorber (to compensate
for the non-infinite number of pole-pieces? never had the motor apart...).
replaced the spring with one close in weight & tension to the existing one,
and the click was gone...
Anyhow, do you play the things? I'm not much of a keyboard player (the
stigma of p'lano lessons when I was a kid), and I don't play out anymore,
just noodle around & put down simple organ tracks on my "vanity" recordings
(think soundtrack of "Fritz The Cat", really fun stuff to goof on). The
thing is, the bottom manual could use ... err ... more bottom. I was
thinking of sneakin' in the bottom 12 (pedal) tonewheels as a sub-harmonic
on *all* the bottom octaves, simply cutting the level down by ~1/2 on each
higher octave. You know if any one tried it? Any non-starter idiocy you
can see offhand?
-dim
Lord Valve
2004-11-15 18:44:21 UTC
Permalink
This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.
Shiva
2004-11-15 23:10:23 UTC
Permalink
"Lord Valve" <***@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:***@ix.netcom.com...
<snip>
Post by Lord Valve
Post by Shiva
The
thing is, the bottom manual could use ... err ... more bottom. I was
thinking of sneakin' in the bottom 12 (pedal) tonewheels as a sub-harmonic
on *all* the bottom octaves, simply cutting the level down by ~1/2 on each
higher octave. You know if any one tried it? Any non-starter idiocy you
can see offhand?
-dim
What model is it?
LV
It's an M3 "form A3" (the early one with a fieldcoil Jensen). I don't
care - i love it. I got the pedals working right, but i don't really use
them - maybe nail a couple once in a while, but have to watch my feet to do
it. So if i need to use the ped. amp. it's OK with me...
Also, since you're a toob guy, does the power amp section make you want to
scrap it & start from scratch? (I did). Also dragged a couple of cannon
mil-style 19-pin connectors from the basement (real 50's stuff, putting one
on the amp & the other on the wires leading to it, working on the floor with
a laptop & a scope's getting a bit too...
-dim
Lord Valve
2004-11-17 08:35:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shiva
<snip>
Post by Lord Valve
Post by Shiva
The
thing is, the bottom manual could use ... err ... more bottom. I was
thinking of sneakin' in the bottom 12 (pedal) tonewheels as a
sub-harmonic
Post by Lord Valve
Post by Shiva
on *all* the bottom octaves, simply cutting the level down by ~1/2 on
each
Post by Lord Valve
Post by Shiva
higher octave. You know if any one tried it? Any non-starter idiocy
you
Post by Lord Valve
Post by Shiva
can see offhand?
-dim
I've seen it done on consoles, but not spinets.

There aren't enough pedal frequencies available to make it
effective on an M3.
Post by Shiva
Post by Lord Valve
What model is it?
LV
It's an M3 "form A3" (the early one with a fieldcoil Jensen). I don't
care - i love it. I got the pedals working right, but i don't really use
them - maybe nail a couple once in a while, but have to watch my feet to do
it. So if i need to use the ped. amp. it's OK with me...
Also, since you're a toob guy, does the power amp section make you want to
scrap it & start from scratch? (I did).
Naw.
Post by Shiva
Also dragged a couple of cannon
mil-style 19-pin connectors from the basement (real 50's stuff, putting one
on the amp & the other on the wires leading to it, working on the floor with
a laptop & a scope's getting a bit too...
-dim
Here's the skinny on the oil -


Nomenclature: Lubricating oil, preservative, special, spec MIL-L-644
Stock #: 14-02834-10
Class: 06-B
Source: AF stock

Now you know as much as I do. ;-)

Lord Valve
Expert
Shiva
2004-11-18 00:05:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lord Valve
Post by Shiva
<snip>
Post by Lord Valve
Post by Shiva
The
thing is, the bottom manual could use ... err ... more bottom. I was
thinking of sneakin' in the bottom 12 (pedal) tonewheels as a
sub-harmonic
Post by Lord Valve
Post by Shiva
on *all* the bottom octaves, simply cutting the level down by ~1/2 on
each
Post by Lord Valve
Post by Shiva
higher octave. You know if any one tried it? Any non-starter idiocy
you
Post by Lord Valve
Post by Shiva
can see offhand?
-dim
I've seen it done on consoles, but not spinets.
There aren't enough pedal frequencies available to make it
effective on an M3.
Post by Shiva
Post by Lord Valve
What model is it?
LV
It's an M3 "form A3" (the early one with a fieldcoil Jensen). I don't
care - i love it. I got the pedals working right, but i don't really use
them - maybe nail a couple once in a while, but have to watch my feet to do
it. So if i need to use the ped. amp. it's OK with me...
Also, since you're a toob guy, does the power amp section make you want to
scrap it & start from scratch? (I did).
Naw.
Post by Shiva
Also dragged a couple of cannon
mil-style 19-pin connectors from the basement (real 50's stuff, putting one
on the amp & the other on the wires leading to it, working on the floor with
a laptop & a scope's getting a bit too...
-dim
Here's the skinny on the oil -
Nomenclature: Lubricating oil, preservative, special, spec MIL-L-644
Stock #: 14-02834-10
Class: 06-B
Source: AF stock
Now you know as much as I do. ;-)
Lord Valve
Expert
Hey, you wanna clutter your mind? Here are the *newest* gob'ment specs on
the stuff, or, rather, an updated mil. #'s *uprated* specs: (snatch them
from this site, scroll down down down...)
http://www.sharpshootr.com/lubricant.htm
The spray stuff they're offering to nug nuts (don't get me wrong, I love the
things, but I live in NYC, ) seems to be ideal for the Hammond
cognoscenti...
-dim

Tony
2004-11-15 01:54:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shiva
I was fairly sure it was straight forward, but then i was sure that
nothing could go wrong when I replaced (according to the instructions) the
break fluid in a 275GTB Ferrari (not mine, i just restored it) with a
purportedly "inert" synthetic fluid & destroyed everything non-metal in the
system.
Hey ain't nothin' compared to this: at least you were putting what you
thought was the correct fluid in the right place.

Occassionally I help a couple of Seniors in my community. This one person in
her 80s but still driving (an older friend of my late mother) called me up
and said, "hey! can you stop over my car will not start!"

So. I went over and there was horrible looking oil all under the car and I
said, "what happened!!?"

She said, "all I did is use the hose and put some water in where you put
it." <pointing to where she put the garden hose that was the oil cap>

I replied, "nooooooooo!!!!!!!!! you just filled your engine with water with
the garden hose!!!!! HERE is the water tank!!"

"It did start".

"I know." I retorted back. "for one second or two before you blew out all
the seals and froze the engine up."

She had the car a Taurus V6 older wagon, towed away to the junk yard and
made me promise NEVER to tell her family about it, "even when I die."

She told her family, "the car engine just upped and died, I had a mechanic
look at it and it was not worth fixing."

Tales of the G-Generation.

Tony
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